The Islam Thread...

[Paradox]

Science of any kind is not found in any of the Holy Books.

Err, you sure about that, Hax?

[Paradox]

Fahed, question: Why can't Allah have a son?

There are verses in the Qur'an that explain this, it's the shortest Surah so it isn't difficult to find.

[Sigurd]

One of the things I put a question mark with regarding Islam, If I can be as bold to do so, is the use of the Angel Gabriel as the messenger from Allah to the Prophet.

We have a being mentioned in Daniel (Old Testament) which makes him important in the Jewish religion. (around 500 BC)
Then the same angel appears to some people foretelling the birth of John the Baptist and Jesus.
Interestingly this angel names Jesus, the Son of God. (Around year 0)
Then this same being appears and gives unto the Prophet the message of Allah recorded in the Qur'an. (finished around 632 AD.)

Three religions having the same messenger. Something is up with this.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

There are verses in the Qur'an that explain this, it's the shortest Surah so it isn't difficult to find.

I was rather hoping you'd give me a reference at least, I'd be more than happy to return the favour.

One of the things I put a question mark with regarding Islam, If I can be as bold to do so, is the use of the Angel Gabriel as the messenger from Allah to the Prophet.

We have a being mentioned in Daniel (Old Testament) which makes him important in the Jewish religion. (around 500 BC)
Then the same angel appears to some people foretelling the birth of John the Baptist and Jesus.
Interestingly this angel names Jesus, the Son of God. (Around year 0)
Then this same being appears and gives unto the Prophet the message of Allah recorded in the Qur'an. (finished around 632 AD.)

Three religions having the same messenger. Something is up with this.

Well, obviously the latter two religions are claiming continuity with Judaism. I fail to see the fishyness. Of course only a maximum of one of the two is telling the truth.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Didn't Mohammed claim that Gabriel nearly strangled him and claimed to be demon-possessed for months after the event? Some Christians claim this shows he was decieved by Satan, since Gabriel approached the Christian's in a peacefull manner.

Or maybe that is not true. I just recall reading it in the Christian forums I browse a bit, it could well be very biased or completely untrue, I have no idea to be honest.

[Hax]

One of the things I put a question mark with regarding Islam, If I can be as bold to do so, is the use of the Angel Gabriel as the messenger from Allah to the Prophet.

We have a being mentioned in Daniel (Old Testament) which makes him important in the Jewish religion. (around 500 BC)
Then the same angel appears to some people foretelling the birth of John the Baptist and Jesus.
Interestingly this angel names Jesus, the Son of God. (Around year 0)
Then this same being appears and gives unto the Prophet the message of Allah recorded in the Qur'an. (finished around 632 AD.)

Three religions having the same messenger. Something is up with this.

Actually, Islam does not state that Gabriel says that Jesus (or Isa) is the son of God.

Also, to some people who might have thought that Islam is the religion of peace, it's really not.



It's the religion of mercy.

Didn't Mohammed claim that Gabriel nearly strangled him and claimed to be demon-possessed for months after the event? Some Christians claim this shows he was decieved by Satan, since Gabriel approached the Christian's in a peacefull manner.

Well, Christianity is very biased when it comes to this. I remember reading a christian source that said that Muhammed was once a christian priest, and thus an apostate, however, this is not true. I can't imagine Muhammed having said that.

[Jolt]

Three religions having the same messenger. Something is up with this.

That's because those religions (And many others before them) based on the same story (Or some details of the same story) to found those religions. I'll give you a very simple hint.

Horus (As you must logically think, Horus was created some 3000 years before Jesus)

Horus was born on the 25th of December, born of a virgin, which was signalled by the Star in the East, which was in turn followed by three kings in search of the newborn saviour (Horus). At 12 he was already a prodigal teacher, at the age of 30 he was baptized by Anup. Horus had 12 disciples he travelled about with, performing miracles such as healing the sick and walking over water. After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified, buried and resurrected after three days.

One can also choose to believe Jesus had a life very similar to that of mythological Horus.

EDIT: What happened was that Islam went to get the strongest, most popular religion in the Middle Eastern region (Do not forget of the contacts that Western Arabia, where Islam began, with Egypt and the Levant, which were bursting with Christian fervor.), and base part of their story on there.

[Incongruous]

That's because those religions (And many others before them) based on the same story (Or some details of the same story) to found those religions. I'll give you a very simple hint.

Horus (As you must logically think, Horus was created some 3000 years before Jesus)

Horus was born on the 25th of December, born of a virgin, which was signalled by the Star in the East, which was in turn followed by three kings in search of the newborn saviour (Horus). At 12 he was already a prodigal teacher, at the age of 30 he was baptized by Anup. Horus had 12 disciples he travelled about with, performing miracles such as healing the sick and walking over water. After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified, buried and resurrected after three days.

One can also choose to believe Jesus had a life very similar to that of mythological Horus.

EDIT: What happened was that Islam went to get the strongest, most popular religion in the Middle Eastern region (Do not forget of the contacts that Western Arabia, where Islam began, with Egypt and the Levant, which were bursting with Christian fervor.), and base part of their story on there.

Been watching too many dodgy films on Youtube?

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Islam - sweeping India, converting or killing it's people for the past century.

Hey, and now they think they own Europe too!

[Incongruous]

Islam - sweeping India, converting or killing it's people for the past century.

Hey, and now they think they own Europe too!

Aah the warm feeling of a well thought out post.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Aah the warm feeling of a well thought out post.

Second part strictly opinion (though based by facts, just depends how you want to interpret them).

First part you will refute?

[Incongruous]

Well the second part is based on bollocks.

The first part is based on selective fact taking.

Thus we come to the conclusion that it was not a well thought out post.

[Jolt]

Been watching too many dodgy films on Youtube?

Nope. I'm an archaeology student who just happened to start an essay about Horus and found that, by reading not only the "Book of the Dead" and several manuals translating the hieroglyphs in the tombs monuments, that apparently he is Jesus long lost brother (Or clone.)

[Incongruous]

Really?
Well I could have pointed you to a very poorly made documentary which said exactly the same thing.

There are also very bad books written on the subject.

[KarlXII]

Islam - sweeping India, converting or killing it's people for the past century.

Hey, and now they think they own Europe too!

Damn Muslims, right? Killing every person in India. I mean, damn, it's like they were the only religion to do that! Such a dirty, evil, religion. Man, I need a shower after hearing the word "Quran".

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Damn Muslims, right? Killing every person in India. I mean, damn, it's like they were the only religion to do that! Such a dirty, evil, religion. Man, I need a shower after hearing the word "Quran".

Yeah, don't forget the Christians.

Sorry if you've already showered. You might need another.

I've seen with my own eyes how it is done in India. And for this I will never forget it.

[KarlXII]

Yeah, don't forget the Christians.

I've seen with my own eyes how it is done in India. And for this I will never forget it.

You mean you've been to India and watched all the Muslims kill, loot, rape and pillage? Hell, I'm pretty doubtful, if you ask me.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

You mean you've been to India and watched all the Muslims kill, loot, rape and pillage? Hell, I'm pretty doubtful, if you ask me.

I have seen and had to try to stop forced conversion with my uncle. I don't see where you got loot, rape or pillage from my post. Now you've gone and made things up again. Tsk tsk

[KarlXII]

I have seen and had to try to stop forced conversion with my uncle. I don't see where you got loot, rape or pillage from my post. Now you've gone and made things up again. Tsk tsk

- sweeping India, converting or killing it's people for the past century.

I've seen with my own eyes how it is done in India

Yeah, I'm making stuff up

And I've personally been handed Bibles (Wierdly enough) and Torahs, and have been confronted and preached to numerous times. Is this not attempting forced conversion? Is telling me I'm going to Hell and eternal damnation if I don't convert to Catholicism (I'm a Lutheran, double trouble!) not trying forced conversion?

I think your views are more based off personal fears/hates than actual logic.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Yeah, I'm making stuff up

And I've personally been handed Bibles (Wierdly enough) and Torahs, and have been confronted and preached to numerous times. Is this not attempting forced conversion? Is telling me I'm going to Hell and eternal damnation if I don't convert to Catholicism (I'm a Lutheran, double trouble!) not trying forced conversion?

I think your views are more based off personal fears/hates than actual logic.

Yeah you are making stuff up. You managed to take "convert or kill" and add "loot, rape or pillage" to it. Simple, no?

I already stated what I meant by seeing with my own eyes. While in India (Andrapadesh) my uncle and I were at the market. Upon leaving we were at the corner of a street and saw a man (that looked quite a bit wealthier than the other) show him a book. He brought out some food, teased the poorer man, and said something (I didn't understand). The poorer man shook his head, so the other (who was wearing traditional Islamic clothes) threw some of the food on the ground pushed him and yelled "You'll pay" (or something similar because it doesn't translate properly into English).

Afterwards we walked over and my uncle asked the guy what had happend (I don't speak the language). We found out the man was trying to force him and his family to come to the Mosque, so we gave him some rupees and went back home.

I mean, I have a LOT of things to do, but if you really want me to do a bit of research on some of the things that have been done, I will...

[KarlXII]

Yeah you are making stuff up. You managed to take "convert or kill" and add "loot, rape or pillage" to it. Simple, no?

I already stated what I meant by seeing with my own eyes. While in India (Andrapadesh) my uncle and I were at the market. Upon leaving we were at the corner of a street and saw a man (that looked quite a bit wealthier than the other) show him a book. He brought out some food, teased the poorer man, and said something (I didn't understand). The poorer man shook his head, so the other (who was wearing traditional Islamic clothes) threw some of the food on the ground pushed him and yelled "You'll pay" (or something similar because it doesn't translate properly into English).

Afterwards we walked over and my uncle asked the guy what had happend (I don't speak the language). We found out the man was trying to force him and his family to come to the Mosque, so we gave him some rupees and went back home.

I mean, I have a LOT of things to do, but if you really want me to do a bit of research on some of the things that have been done, I will...

Yeah, this is a perfect example of all Islam. ALL OF IT. EVERYONE, right? Ha, your reasoning is poor if this is it.

I live in Southern California, stuff like this is common. Rival gangs have killed each other. I've seen different religious peoples fight. I witnessed what you had, though it was with a Jew and a Muslim. Funny, right?

Again, if your reasoning is based off this, it's poor and laughable.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Yeah, this is a perfect example of all Islam. ALL OF IT. EVERYONE, right? Ha, your reasoning is poor if this is it.

I live in Southern California, stuff like this is common. Rival gangs have killed each other. I've seen different religious peoples fight. I witnessed what you had, though it was with a Jew and a Muslim. Funny, right?

Again, if your reasoning is based off this, it's poor and laughable.

No, my reasoning is based on plenty of facts, but it would be quite dreadful to have to pull them all together. I might have to, considering it seems you're a tad ignorant on the subject.

No, not all of Islam at all. It is just an incident that weighs heavily on my mind. Some people's viewpoints can change completely after seeing a single event, so you can't say it's not possible for it to have an affect.

Sarcasm is a tool for debate, however your use of it constantly is getting irritating. Perhaps it would behoove you to use it more sparingly.

[KarlXII]

No, my reasoning is based on plenty of facts, but it would be quite dreadful to have to pull them all together. I might have to, considering it seems you're a tad ignorant on the subject.

No, not all of Islam at all. It is just an incident that weighs heavily on my mind. Some people's viewpoints can change completely after seeing a single event, so you can't say it's not possible for it to have an affect.

Sarcasm is a tool for debate, however your use of it constantly is getting irritating. Perhaps it would behoove you to use it more sparingly.

Yes, I'm being ignorant

Viewpoints should not be based off something someone saw someone else do. If we all were like that, we'd still be in caves.

I see gangs fight with other gangs, I do not use this agaisnt black people. I have seen forced religious conversion, I do not use this against the religion. Using this as an example of the "GREAT MUSLIM EVIL GENOCIDAL IN INDIA" doesn't work, and mentioning it is unneccesary in it's entirety.

The Mughal invasion of India 9which I assume you are talking about) did kill a lot of people, though, this was during a time where Christains fought Muslims for the Holy Land, killed civilians, based off religion, and where Europe was an extremely intolerant collection of Kingdoms.

The Mughal invasion, of course, resulted in death. However, Babur, establisher and first Emperor of the Mughal dynasty, did not invade for religious reasons. He invaded India at the invitation of an Indian prince who apparently wanted a ruler disposed of, Babur did so, and became ruler himself. Under Babur, Hindu's were free to worship, free to build temples, he ordered no cows be killed in the conquering of Delhi as to not offend the Hindus.

His son, Humayun, was incompetent. Losing the throne, he managed to take it back, but was killed when he broke his neck. Not the greatest emperor of all time, to say the least.

Then we have Abu Akbar. Reconquering what was Babur's kingdom, he quickly made the Mughal's a powerful force. Married thousands of wives for diplomacy, including Hindu ones. He believed extremely in religious tolerance, including the appointment of Hindus in government positions. Abu ended the religious tax, and non-Muslims were not forced to follow Islamic law.

I could go into this all night, I choose not to.


TL;DR:

You say

Islam - sweeping India, converting or killing it's people for the past century

Yes, killings are common with conquest. Be it Muslim, Jewish, or Christain.

But, the Mughal Empire did bring very great achievments, if I may quote the BBC:

Centralised government which brought together many smaller kingdoms
Delegated government with respect for human rights
Persian art and culture
Persian language mixed with Arabic and Hindi to create Urdu
Periods of great religious tolerance
A style of architecture (e.g. the Taj Mahal)
A system of education that took account of pupils' needs and culture

Islam- not the Communist, homosexual, and terrorist religion Fox News makes it out to be.

[Tribesman]

I already stated what I meant by seeing with my own eyes. While in India (Andrapadesh) my uncle and I were at the market. Upon leaving we were at the corner of a street and saw a man (that looked quite a bit wealthier than the other) show him a book. He brought out some food, teased the poorer man, and said something (I didn't understand). The poorer man shook his head, so the other (who was wearing traditional Islamic clothes) threw some of the food on the ground pushed him and yelled "You'll pay" (or something similar because it doesn't translate properly into English).

Afterwards we walked over and my uncle asked the guy what had happend (I don't speak the language). We found out the man was trying to force him and his family to come to the Mosque, so we gave him some rupees and went back home.

So you saw something with your own eyes that you didn't understand , conducted in a language that you don't understand and based your views on what one person in a dispute told your uncle .
And to top it all of you managed to do all this in a area that has a very small proportion of Muslims in the population ...damn they ain't that good at the convert or die business are they
Yeah thats good reasoning
But hold on , maybe there is something there , the bloke looked wealthier than the other fellow . In a western context that might suggest he was wearing a suit , he came to the other fellow with a book ...its the mormons or the jehovas isn't it.....no wait a minute he came with a book and said you will pay ....its the scientologists

[Fragony]

EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. BG

[KarlXII]

EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. BG

Yeah, I must be. I mean, it's pretty obvious Islam is a terrorist religion full of Communist homosexual terrorists.

[Fragony]

What der linkschmensch sytematically manages to mentally block is that islamism is a political sytem with imperialist ambitions, if you want the best for what you want islam to be, and what it is for most muslims who are mostly good people (this vermin is their problem first) you better wise up. Problem is lefties can't think their brain is too occupied with knowing.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Alright SwedishFish, I'll write something up for you.

There is no doubt in my mind there are plenty of good Muslim people, and in fact I'm sure there are great Indian muslims too, in which we learn plenty from. More to come...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Problem is lefties can't think their brain is too occupied with knowing.

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Thank you kindly.

[Fragony]

But that wouldn't be any fun at all!

gah ok