role-playing morale

[DeathEmperor]

Well since we're on the topic of 300 now, from the point of view of an ancient history major and aspiring historical fiction writer 300 is indeed disgusting. From the point of view of an average person looking for an entertaining time however, it magnificently succeeds in entertaining and giving you your money's worth.

Nearly two years ago at a family reunion two dozen of my aunts, uncles, cousins and myself watched it and we had a hell of a time. After the credits started rolling I was bombarded by questions from my cousins, old and young, if the Spartans really fought like they did and what the real story was (yes none of them believed the movie was historically accurate for a second.). I spent the good part of an hour explaining to them the basics of Spartan culture, how large the Persian army really was (I told them that in my opinion it was in the 100,000 - 200,000 man range) and the battles of Platea and Salamis. Despite it's obvious historical faults it actually has succeeded in enticing the average person to read up on history, whether learned people such as us want to believe it or not.

And to be honest, I find the "historical elitism" that people who know about the actual history show to those who enjoy the inaccurate history inspired movies that Hollywood churns out very childish at times. I mean it's one thing to say, "Don't mean to burst your bubble, but that's nowhere near how it really happened." but it's another to say "You actually liked that piece of garbage? And you call yourself a historian.".


I'm just saying that people should approach anything with an open-mind and enjoy something for itself, especially if they know about the material of the movie/film/book/play/game or whatever else.

[lobf]

how large the Persian army really was (I told them that in my opinion it was in the 100,000 - 200,000 man range)

I wonder if TPC could fill in on this. Is this the entire standing army, or the invasion force or what? Where did you get these numbers? I'm sure I could find some myself but I'd prefer to get a more knowledgeable opinion on the matter.

which movie do you guys think is the most historically accurate? <.<

Wasn't Glory pretty accurate?

:)

Not to mention the fact that everything in the 300 except some of the actors was CG - simply preposterous.

I agree with you completely here. I'm sick and tired of CGI shortcuts and movies filmed on green screens.

[Hax]

I wonder if TPC could fill in on this. Is this the entire standing army, or the invasion force or what? Where did you get these numbers? I'm sure I could find some myself but I'd prefer to get a more knowledgeable opinion on the matter.

Just one moment, please.

"The entire navy -- Phoenician, Egyptian, and Greek -- was to be utilized, as well as half the regular troops -- three of the six army corps, each about sixty thousand strong"

Half of the regular troops, would of course be 180,000 men. In total counting (3 x 60,000) x 2 = 180,000 x 2 = 360,000.

However, keep in mind that not all of the soliders were stationed in Thermopylae at that time, as some were I believe in Thrace, or with the fleet at Salamis. There are some other interesting things Olmstead states in his book, such as:

"Food must be provided by the cities along the road at the cost of 400 talents for a single meal per day."

(400 x 3) [three meals per day] x 60 [calculation to minai] = 72,000 [mnai for meals] 0.2 (or 20 drachmae). Well, 20 ancient drachmae per soldier was more than enough to feed a standing army of 360,000 men, especially when thinking of supplies and such. So I guess 360,000 men is probably a good bet.

[lobf]

Just one moment, please.


Half of the regular troops, would of course be 180,000 men. In total counting (3 x 60,000) x 2 = 180,000 x 2 = 360,000.

However, keep in mind that not all of the soliders were stationed in Thermopylae at that time, as some were I believe in Thrace, or with the fleet at Salamis. There are some other interesting things Olmstead states in his book, such as:



(400 x 3) [three meals per day] x 60 [calculation to minai] = 72,000 [mnai for meals] 0.2 (or 20 drachmae). Well, 20 ancient drachmae per soldier was more than enough to feed a standing army of 360,000 men, especially when thinking of supplies and such. So I guess 360,000 men is probably a good bet.

Thank you very much, Hax. I knew someone here would have that readily available.

I'm not so clear on whether or not this was just the invasion force, though.

[DeathEmperor]

I wonder if TPC could fill in on this. Is this the entire standing army, or the invasion force or what? Where did you get these numbers? I'm sure I could find some myself but I'd prefer to get a more knowledgeable opinion on the matter.

I apologize for not replying sooner. Went with a couple friends to see Babylon A.D. (which was better than I expected though it felt like they rushed the unresolved ending).

The number of 100,000 - 200,000 is my personal opinion on how many Persian soldiers were present at land battle, and I apologize for not specifying earlier. For that number range I mainly use Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond's estimate, though I used a bit more salt so to speak and reduced it by 42,000. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book of his I used, I think it was called The Classical Age of Greece but it's been a long time since I read it and I'm probably wrong. However, I do have a copy of John Warry's Warfare of the Classical World on hand. Warry writes that 130,000 Persian soldiers, 20,000 Persian cavalry and a fleet of 1,200 triremes and many supply ships were present for the battle.

Unfortunately, he doesn't list the crews of the triremes or the size/class of the supply ships and their crews as well. If we use the consensual believe that a trireme had a crew of 200 men that multiplied by 1,200 gives us the massive figure of 240,000 in naval personnel alone! This plus the land army gives us a grand total of 390,000 men, not including support personnel or the crews of the supply ships.


Now that I've looked over my old notes and reread a few of my books that went over the battle, my interest in this battle has been reignited. I hope some of what I wrote is helpful to you, and if not TPC will surely arrive and correct any errors on my part.

[Frederico]

I think the 100,000 estimate is based upon Herodotus's figures, if memory serves.