Weapons and Aging

[Snite]

how is everyone?

I need help with two issues:

Issue 1: I hate how my Sweboz general's bodyguard is always switching to their spears in battle since there's supposed to be a penalty for using spears against enemy infantry units, so I got into export descr units or whatever it's called and took their spears away. I go back to playing the game, and bam! they're using spears and when I check the file again, somehow their secondary weapon is back. How did that happen? How can I get rid of the spears? And do they switch because the spear has a higher attack rating? If so, will making the sword higher keep them from switching?

Issue 2: I keep reading in classical history how so many people lived well into their 80s. Some even managed to live into their 90s, however, according to Herodotus the average lifetime was 80. Considering that it wasn't as if their calendar years were 1/2 of ours or anything, I wanna tweak the aging system in EB so that my generals live longer. Anyone know how to do this?


Snite

[Foot]

Issue 1: To change the secondary weapon you would need to open the model in a model editing program (3DS MAX or Milkshape) and delete the item "secondary weapon". The malus for spears against swords has been taken away, iirc, by increasing their attack rate by 4 (the malus is -4 when attacking non-spear infantry).

Issue 2: I believe the age at which generals start popping off is hardcoded, afaik.

Foot

[Aemilius Paulus]

how is everyone?

Issue 2: I keep reading in classical history how so many people lived well into their 80s. Some even managed to live into their 90s, however, according to Herodotus the average lifetime was 80. Considering that it wasn't as if their calendar years were 1/2 of ours or anything, I wanna tweak the aging system in EB so that my generals live longer. Anyone know how to do this?

Snite

You cannot "tweak" it, but you could do what I have been doing in all of my campaigns: simply saving before hitting End Turn and reloading, unless of course, you consider that cheating. As for the average lifespan of a person during Antiquity, I have hard time believing it. Herodotus is my favorite Classical historian as his accuracy and objectivity is mostly unsurpassed by his contemporaries, but he is not faultless. Just read his descriptions of India... they sound more like fairy tales or fantasy books than a historical treatise.

In the Antiquity, the average lifespan for a Roman or a Greek was about 50 years(that's not counting the 40-30% infant mortality rate), according to most modern historians, doctors and archaeologists. Media, both modern and ancient, like nothing more than writing about the isolated and rare cases of a person reaching extraordinary age while failing to mention the millions that die in their 40's 30's or 50's. Not to mention, that Herodotus often wrote about important people. Important people were often of the upper classes of society. An important person from the upper class had more chances of reaching old age if he/she was not assassinated or killed in battle.

[Snite]

But it's in Livy's works as well, hell, Furius Camillius lived over 90 years. And our generals are upper society so it makes sense for them to reap the life expectancy benefits.

As far as messing around with models and such.... way over my head, but thanks for the info.


Snite

[Brucaliffo]

Aemilius Paulus is right: average lifetime of 40/50 is correct, even in the upper classes.

[Hax]

Do you have any sources for that? I'm quite sure Hippokrates lived over 80, and doctors weren't the upper class, AFAIK. Of course, better than most citizens, but still.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Well he may be right there; considering that even though the life expectancy of well-to-do adults may not have been all that radically different from their modern offspring, the life expectancy of childs under 5 were significantly lower. Indeed Herodotos (wrong era, I know!) documents a certain practice of not informing fathers of their newborn sons until it is safe to assume the kids will reach adulthood. Assume 12 years.

That said life expectancy of 'your average x' has nothing to do with the life expectancy of an individual; much less in a game which is known to more or less kill off in an arbitrary fashion.

[Hax]

Weren't children also just sometimes left to die if the guy had too many sons?

[TWFanatic]

I believe, regarding question #1, that your particular problem (losing the changes you made to the EDU file) is due to the trivial script replacing your EDU file when you restarted EB. You will have to edit both files (in your Rome: Total War/EB/sp game edu backup and mp game edu backup files), changing the secondary weapon fields as such:

stat_sec         18, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    light_spear

to

stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    no

You probably then have to go into the DMB file as well, editting the entry from

type				germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_gastiz
skeleton			fs_semi_fast_swordsman_barb_slash_verybig, fs_fast_o_f_spearman_verybig
indiv_range			40
texture				germans, eb/data/models_unit/textures/germanic/ebgermanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_stefan25_germans.TGA
texture				slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/germanic/ebgermanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_stefan25_germans.TGA
texture				merc, eb/data/models_unit/textures/germanic/ebgermanic_infantry_gastiz_stefan25_germans.TGA
model_flexi			eb/data/models_unit/ebgermanic_gastiz_ferulharjoz_alin_stefan25_high.CAS, 15
model_flexi			eb/data/models_unit/ebgermanic_gastiz_ferulharjoz_alin_stefan25_med.CAS, 30
model_flexi			eb/data/models_unit/ebgermanic_gastiz_ferulharjoz_alin_stefan25_low.CAS, 40
model_flexi			eb/data/models_unit/ebgermanic_gastiz_ferulharjoz_alin_stefan25_lowest.CAS, max
model_sprite		germans, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/germanic/ebsprite_germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_all.spr
model_sprite		slave, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/germanic/ebsprite_germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_all.spr
model_sprite		merc, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/germanic/ebsprite_germanic_infantry_gastiz_merc.spr
model_tri			400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

to

type				germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_gastiz
skeleton			fs_semi_fast_swordsman_barb_slash_verybig
indiv_range			40
texture				germans, eb/data/models_unit/textures/germanic/ebgermanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_stefan25_germans.TGA
texture				slave, eb/data/models_unit/textures/germanic/ebgermanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_stefan25_germans.TGA
texture				merc, eb/data/models_unit/textures/germanic/ebgermanic_infantry_gastiz_stefan25_germans.TGA
model_flexi			eb/data/models_unit/ebgermanic_gastiz_ferulharjoz_alin_stefan25_high.CAS, 15
model_flexi			eb/data/models_unit/ebgermanic_gastiz_ferulharjoz_alin_stefan25_med.CAS, 30
model_flexi			eb/data/models_unit/ebgermanic_gastiz_ferulharjoz_alin_stefan25_low.CAS, 40
model_flexi			eb/data/models_unit/ebgermanic_gastiz_ferulharjoz_alin_stefan25_lowest.CAS, max
model_sprite		germans, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/germanic/ebsprite_germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_all.spr
model_sprite		slave, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/germanic/ebsprite_germanic_infantry_ferulharjoz_all.spr
model_sprite		merc, 60.0, eb/data/sprites/germanic/ebsprite_germanic_infantry_gastiz_merc.spr
model_tri			400, 0.5f, 0.5f, 0.5f

(Remove the ", fs_fast_o_f_spearman_verybig" portion on the skeleton line).

EDU=export_descr_unit
DMB=descr_model_battle

I hope that works. I have tried this sort of thing in the past and it worked well enough for me, but mind you that I am not entirely sure this will work for you, particuly considering that the knowledgeble Foot did not mention it.

EDIT:

@Hax: It was customary in Rome to expose unwanted children to the elements, indeed it was stipulated in the twelve tables that "dreadfully deformed children shall be exposed." That is the best answer I can give to your question.

[||Lz3||]

um well this is not prooven but... many people think playing with alex.exe makes the generals live longer...

in my case my generals usually last till 65... the oldest got 75 or so

[fatsweets]

Life expectancy of an individual depends upon many factors. Yes some may live to be 90 or 100 but for most part your life expentancy was on the average in this time less then 60 years old. Now a days the life expenacy of an average person is 70 to 80 years. In my family the woman live to be 90 years on average but the males live to around 70, so there is quite a difference depending on many factors. So it really depends on diet, exercise and other factors I can't explain at this moment. But, in this game you can't expect everyone to live to 80 years old, it doesn't happen with most families.

So don't expect there to be a common denominator. It all happens on percentage, depending on many different factors.

[||Lz3||]

triple... actually... <.<

hehe well you got your 100th post

I'm starting to suspect you did it intentionally... >.> :P

EDIT : back on topic shall we :P

[fatsweets]

Please believe me, not intentionally, I only post when I have something worthwhile to say. As you can seee been a member since 2006, but until now only reached 100 posts and I look at this forum almost every day.

[TWFanatic]

I suppose I'm a little late but happy anniversary.

[fatsweets]

I respect everyone who works on this mod, and if there is anyone who downgrades you guys I will fight back with a vengence. Played EB now for over two years and still not tired of it, love this game and you guys have done a tremendous job. I wish their was an awards show that gave you guys the credit, but there is not? Oh well? Keep on keeping on.

[konny]

Issue 1: I hate how my Sweboz general's bodyguard is always switching to their spears in battle since there's supposed to be a penalty for using spears against enemy infantry units, so I got into export descr units or whatever it's called and took their spears away. I go back to playing the game, and bam! they're using spears and when I check the file again, somehow their secondary weapon is back. How did that happen? How can I get rid of the spears? And do they switch because the spear has a higher attack rating? If so, will making the sword higher keep them from switching?

"alt+right click" to switch between primary and secondary weapon. Spear-Swordsmen are by far the best infantry because they are able to deal with cavalry and infantry the same effective. For the other problem: Seems like you have changed the EDU in the data folder and then started the game with the Trivial Script?

Issue 2: I keep reading in classical history how so many people lived well into their 80s. Some even managed to live into their 90s, however, according to Herodotus the average lifetime was 80. Considering that it wasn't as if their calendar years were 1/2 of ours or anything, I wanna tweak the aging system in EB so that my generals live longer. Anyone know how to do this?

EB has 4 turns per year, RTW 2 turns. That makes it the double likely for a character over 60 to die in a given year in EB.

[Ludens]

Weren't children also just sometimes left to die if the guy had too many sons?

It's hard to understand from a modern perspective, but child exposure was pretty common in the ancient world. Life was far more uncertain back then and this breeds a certain carelessness about the lives of those who cannot look after themselves. It's hard enough to bring up two healthy sons to adulthood in a famine situation, it's going to be harder still if you have to look a retarded one as well. So in the Greek and Roman world, if a child looked abnormal or was unwanted at birth, the father could decide to have it exposed. IIRC there exist a chilling letter from a travelling merchant to his pregnant wife, in which he bluntly orders her to dump the child if it turns out to be a girl.

[Snite]

ALT-clicking doesn't work because the spear is their secondary weapon which ALT-clicking tells them to use. I've tried it repeatedly to no avail. And I understand how it's meant to make them great all-around infantry, but I don't use these guys against cavalry if I can help it as that puts my swordbearing general at a disadvantage. I basically just want them to be uber-anti-infantry.

Thanks a lot for the step-by-step Fanatic. I'm gonna try it out.

And yeah, I installed the Trivial Script cuz I just figured if the EB team put it in with the game it must be good, but I have no clue what it is. Could anyone give a quick explanation?

Thanks all,

Snite

[TWFanatic]

When you run your EB Single Player shortcut, trivial script takes the EDU file from your sp game edu backup folder and places it in your Data folder (overwriting whatever use to be there). The same process is performed when you run the multi player shortcut, only with the multi player EDU. Therefore, you must edit your EDU files in the MP & SP EDU backup folders in order to prevent your changes from being overwritten.

[Maion Maroneios]

Do you have any sources for that? I'm quite sure Hippokrates lived over 80, and doctors weren't the upper class, AFAIK. Of course, better than most citizens, but still.

Well, many phiosophers like Planton reached until their 80's as well, and they wheren't in the highest social class. They may have been paid well by the state, but their lives where simple ones, too simple for an average person (according to modern science) in order to give him such a great lifespan. What we forget although, is that those people knew the secrets of life, all with measure, caring for others and doing good. It is a subject that is gaining much ground nowdays, although left widely negleted for too many years. The brain can destroy you, but can also bestow you with so many good things, one of which is long and good life. Hippokrates was just one of them

Weren't children also just sometimes left to die if the guy had too many sons?

That was practised only with girls, unless the child was crippled, AFAIK.

Maion

[konny]

ALT-clicking doesn't work because the spear is their secondary weapon which ALT-clicking tells them to use.

*Click* tells them to use the primary weapon
*Alt+Click* tells them to use the secondary weapon

There are three occasions in which they switch to the secondary weapon without beeing ordered to:

1. A soldier has been knocked down (only apllies to single soldiers)
2. The unit is charging (should switch back to primary weapon after the charge)
3. The unit is fighting an enemy it has not been ordered to attack

In the later case, what happens quite frequent in assaults on town or other very chaotic battles, *Click* on the unit they are fighting and they will switch back to the primary weapon (sometimes needs repeative *Clicks*).

[Aemilius Paulus]

Wait, so if I change the primary/secondary weapons of a unit or change their stats, it's fully save-game compatible? I would love to change the Mori Gaesum (Helvetii Phalanx) and Galatikoi Kuarothoroi (Galatian Heavy Spearmen) unit to spears, instead of having both spears and swords.

P.S. I know this is a off-topic, but I have been dying to ask this question. Does anyone know what language the Helvettians spoke? Mori is also a Russian/Slavic word for sea, while Gaesum is a Celtic word.