The greatest human tragedy of all time

[Togakure]

An excellent reply, thank you. You "speak" forcefully. I cannot see you, cannot observe your body language as you speak, can't hear your tone or inflections, and have not "observed" you here over time. I find it inherently difficult to trust people who present themselves with such force and emphasis, who obviously have an agenda, under such circumstances. The smarter they seem, the more distrustful I tend to be--an unfortunate habit I've developed living in this time and space. I am not one to easily accept such presentations as fact, or even credible, until I alleviate that mistrust. Answering my questions as you did, and particularly, in the manner that you did, increases my ability to hear you and accept what you have to say, or at least seriously consider it. I need to assure myself of your sincerity, and the nature of your agenda. Kudos.

Indeed, people who believe their righteousness flows from within (self-righteous) are practicing a form of ignorance. Wisdom does not come from within, nor does righteousness, but from observation about the world, and studying the concepts of right and wrong with an open mind.

It was the manner in which you wrote, more that the statements themselves, that made you seem a bit self-righteous to me. You state emphatically that neither wisdom nor righteousness come from within. This is contrary to what some believe--some whom I have come to view as wise. It seems that you are saying these people are self-righteous and practicing a form of ignorance. My limited understanding of sufism and zen suggest that enlightenment is indeed to be discovered "within," not through cognitive observation and critical analysis of the outside world. In fact, cognition inhibits its attainment, hence why meditation and the "stilling" of one's mind is central to their disciplines.

A definition of "self-righteous" I found online: Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.

Moralistic: Marked by a narrow-minded morality.

This is what I meant when I wrote you sounded a bit self-righteous. This is the first time I've heard it suggested that the self-righteous believe their righteousness "flows from within." It seemed as if you were discrediting the beliefs of those who believe as the sufis and zen practitioners do. You seemed emphatically sure of your own correctness. You are of the school that believes the answers lie without, which is fine--they may indeed. But when you emphatically state that those who believe the answers lie within are self-righteous and ignorant ....

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

An excellent reply, thank you. You "speak" forcefully. I cannot see you, cannot observe your body language as you speak, can't hear your tone or inflections, and have not "observed" you here over time. I find it inherently difficult to trust people who present themselves with such force and emphasis, who obviously have an agenda, under such circumstances. The smarter they seem, the more distrustful I tend to be--an unfortunate habit I've developed living in this time and space. I am not one to easily accept such presentations as fact, or even credible, until I alleviate that mistrust. Answering my questions as you did, and particularly, in the manner that you did, increases my ability to hear you and accept what you have to say, or at least seriously consider it. I need to assure myself of your sincerity, and the nature of your agenda. Kudos.

Not a problem, and thank you as well.

Skepticism is one of the most admirable qualities a person can have, in my view. I have little respect for someone who blindly agrees with everything I say, even if I think I am correct, for they have shown that they did not critically consider my assumptions.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It was the manner in which you wrote, more that the statements themselves, that made you seem a bit self-righteous to me. You state emphatically that neither wisdom nor righteousness come from within. This is contrary to what some believe--some whom I have come to view as wise. It seems that you are saying these people are self-righteous and practicing a form of ignorance. My limited understanding of sufism and zen suggest that enlightenment is indeed to be discovered "within," not through cognitive observation and critical analysis of the outside world. In fact, cognition inhibits its attainment, hence why meditation and the "stilling" of one's mind is central to their disciplines.

A definition of "self-righteous" I found online: Piously sure of one's own righteousness; moralistic.

Moralistic: Marked by a narrow-minded morality.

This is what I meant when I wrote you sounded a bit self-righteous. This is the first time I've heard it suggested that the self-righteous believe their righteousness "flows from within." It seemed as if you were discrediting the beliefs of those who believe as the sufis and zen practitioners do. You seemed emphatically sure of your own correctness. You are of the school that believes the answers lie without, which is fine--they may indeed. But when you emphatically state that those who believe the answers lie within are self-righteous and ignorant ....

I do not know much about zen, and I apologize if the reading of my post led you to believe I am emphatically sure that I am correct and zen is not.

I personally have found no use for zen, but if it creates harmony and wisdom for others, then it has value for them. I do not believe practical wisdom can be obtained by emptying the mind of thoughts and not considering their value. In order to invent, for example, one needs to think, and that requires the kind of critical thought and consideration that cannot be found in meditation or zen.

Perhaps meditation allows one to relax, and then when one returns to the practical side of their mind, they are refreshed. But wisdom and knowledge are not obtained by not thinking, in my opinion. I repeat, I am no expert on zen, and maybe there is more to it.

I have to go eat now, and unfortunately I cannot give your post the more thorough examination it deserves right this moment. But I will return to contribute more soon.



@Mouza: I do believe it is getting off topic, and a thread dedicated to this discussion would be useful.

[CBR]

If you want I can split it up and send this discussion to the backroom?


CBR

[Togakure]

For our little side discussion, Askthepizzaguy and I can continue via private message if he wishes. I will never set virtual foot in the Backroom again.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

I will never set virtual foot in the Backroom again.

I don't remember how many times I made and broke that promise. Not that you are me...
.