The greatest human tragedy of all time

[Tristuskhan]

I think he means the ships.

I think he means the ships, yes, but I miss his point... Does the fact that slaves were caught during internal african wars mean that's no more an human tragedy? Thinking that way, US civil war was not a tragedy either, since it was americans killing americans, no?

Well, probably SFTS's sunday Bourbon makes him feel like whipped when one talks about whites harming blacks. A thing that definitely never happened.

Back on the topic: slave trade's numbers are very hard to figure, since the slaves often originated from deep Africa. Coastal kingdoms, knowing they could make much profit from slaves, became specialised in raiding their more continental neighbours. So you have: people dead from the wars themselves, people dying during the trip to the seashore, those dying in the transit camps and those who died during the ocean's crossing. Only a small ratio survived long enough to be sold on the New World's markets. And that lasted four centuries.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well if you think that what makes a tragedy tragic is the fact it was unecessary, then that makes the question a lot tougher (or easier?) to answer.

For example WWI was necessary. Not because we had to have mass murder through modern warfare, but because it would take humanity into a new age, the end colonialism and into the age of ideological extremism (making serious generalisations but you know what I mean). Which was in turn necessary to get where we are to day. Perhaps necessary is the wrong word, maybe inevitable, but even still would that not rule WWI out as a tragedy?

Same for WWII, it was inevitable fascism and Nazism would have their go at glory, to an extent also the USSR and its version of communism.

Maybe the only real tragedies are relatively minor things, on a global scale. Things like an old woman stepping in front of a bus, or maybe on a larger scale an epidemic such as the Black Death.

Or was the Black Death even inevitable? Trade routes between Europe and India through the middle-east were always going to mean exposure to new diseases and the more widespread coverage of those diseases across the planet.

Maybe even the death of 90% of the native Mexican population was inevitable. Mostly it was caused by disease, out of the Conquistadores control. Could it have been avioded (since Colombus didn't know it would happen at the time)? Is it then a tragedy?

[Strike For The South]

I think he means the ships, yes, but I miss his point... Does the fact that slaves were caught during internal african wars mean that's no more an human tragedy? Thinking that way, US civil war was not a tragedy either, since it was americans killing americans, no?

Well, probably SFTS's sunday Bourbon makes him feel like whipped when one talks about whites harming blacks. A thing that definitely never happened.

Back on the topic: slave trade's numbers are very hard to figure, since the slaves often originated from deep Africa. Coastal kingdoms, knowing they could make much profit from slaves, became specialised in raiding their more continental neighbours. So you have: people dead from the wars themselves, people dying during the trip to the seashore, those dying in the transit camps and those who died during the ocean's crossing. Only a small ratio survived long enough to be sold on the New World's markets. And that lasted four centuries.

Every race at one point or another has had slaves or been enslaved.

Is it the greatest human tragedy? no far from it. The history of race and ethnic relations in America is much more deep and complex than many people make it out to be. Did blacks get the shaft? Hell yes nobody here is denying that but to sit here and say whites=evil is stupid because there really wasn't a white identity like there is today. One could make the case that an irish factory worker was on the same standing as a black slave except he had it worse because his religion was looked down upon to while religion was one thing blacks were allowed to have. The civil war in America only became about abolition when it became politically prudent to do so and if had been for Eli Whitney slavery would've ended 60 years earlier. The cotton gin saved an unprofitable business. Not to mention that .5% of the population owned more than 90% of slave. This idea that every man had slaves and ran them into the ground is not only laughable but I am stunned at the absolute ignorance that abounds here in a place where I thought people, before spouting off on a topic would do there research on a topic and put it within context of the time and its place in history. To much to ask I guess

[Tristuskhan]

Did blacks get the shaft? Hell yes nobody here is denying that but to sit here and say whites=evil is stupid because there really wasn't a white identity like there is today.

Are you paranoïd or do you really want someone to say that white=evil? As far as I read this thread, none did yet. And has someone stated that every white american had slaves? I don't think so...

New european emigrants until US Independance often had to sell themselves as slaves, I read somewhere. Darn' whites, enslaving whites. Worse than blacks enslaving blacks. Because they were white, and white=evil, everyone knows that.

Edit: joking, of course.

[Strike For The South]

Are you paranoïd or do you really want someone to say that white=evil? As far as I read this thread, none did yet.

I meant in the connotation of the slave trade. Its funny you mention servants as they really are what sparked how the Americans felt about race. Early on there were many blacks indians and poor whites than rich whites so the rich had to find a way to get the other whites over to there side and propagating a racial higher-achy was one way to do it. Zinn gives a very good explanation of it.