French army falling apart, documents show

[Vladimir]

The problem, the major one, is not the material. What is a use of a Leopard, Leclerc or Abrahams in Afghanistan?
10 years ago, in the same scenario, the platoon would have asked fire support from the regimental 120mm mortars, and get a smoke screen. This “infantry artillery” was cancelled few years ago, for saving.
An infantry company had 82mm group support which would have been able to do so as well.
Now, air support is considered as THE solution.
Ennemies never play the game. Especially when the answer to air support was given in Vietnam long time ago…
The French army is now design for light and fast intervention, but because budget restriction with old material. As usual, politicians (and the population) will deny the problem.

What a shame. There are advantages to “The Army Doctrine” (aka, the doctrine of superior firepower…aka Artillery: King of the Battlefield) and it’s a shame to think all western nations are abandoning it.

Air support is the more modern and popularly accepted form of supporting fire; but you’re right, your enemies never play the game you want them to play. Remember though that it’s easier to counter the threat from mortars than from the air. If the answer to air power was provided in Vietnam the answer to artillery is provided in modern conflicts. The important thing is to keep the enemy adjusting to your tactics, and not you to theirs.

There is a lot to be said for light and fast. The whole point of warfare since, well, forever, is to deliver a small amount matter to a desirable point. What I like about Rumsfeld is that I believe he understood this, but should have been SecDef in the 90’s. Outwardly budget restrictions and aging material may be seen as the reason to go light and fast. However, on the tactical level it makes a lot of sense. The U.S. Army Rangers have a saying: “Speed is security.”

[Fragony]

Dutch army is combination of both, heavy artillery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct1u...eature=related and light vevicles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXSiac-6I0o, beards die pretty well.

[CountArach]

Have the White Flags fallen apart yet? No?

Then the French army is fine.

[KrooK]

Brenus watch your words because I could say something more cruel too.


Poland did not attack Czechoslovakia into 1938 together with Germany. Into 1920 Poland was attacked by Czechoslovakia and lost some territories. Into 1938 these land was recaptured.
Czechs got what they wanted.

[Fragony]

Brenus watch your words because I could say something more cruel too.

France could do something cruel.

What is it with bashing france anyway they take their part for the better or somewhat less at times, they have been just about everywhere. So yeah they have been annoying to Poland so what, wasn't very nice that Germany invaded us and bombed a few cities, so what was normal then we all get a little crazy sometimes now they are good neighbours.

[Brenus]

“Poland did not attack Czechoslovakia into 1938 together with Germany. Into 1920 Poland was attacked by Czechoslovakia and lost some territories. Into 1938 these land was recaptured.
Czechs got what they wanted.” That is a good summary. Poland just use a good opportunity.

“Brenus watch your words because I could say something more cruel too”

The problem is the change in the doctrine and to adapt to new menace. In the 80s it was the Red Tempest. I was trained in anti-tank missile unit (Milan) and I was in an Armoured Division, Mechanised Infantry.
Our target was to destroy the combination tank/infantry and to keep the Russian in the German Territory during 3 days, time for the US to cross the Atlantic.
So all projects in armament development were aimed to an armoured confrontation. So Leclerc and Attack Helicopters were developed.
We saw a great deal of improvement for the individual grunts as well. The FAMAS, new uniform, new transmission finally arrived in the units…
But, hoops, no more Warsaw Pact…
Suddenly no more enemy, just peace keeping mission, and usual business in Africa… No more need of Leclerc, Rafale and other costly material… All was on fast intervention, cheap but with high professionals.
THEN need again of heavy material. But, well, the second aircraft carrier was postponed, the delivery of new Leclerc extended on time, the Rafales and its equivalent at sea delayed… Of course, reduction of numbers, all the usual tricks when politicians want to save money. I wonder to pay want because they cut all budget, except theirs of course…

Then we have the attraction for the US model: Technology. The problem is France can’t afford. But it doesn’t matter. We just need a unit able to demonstrate we have the capacity.
Except after a while we have to not only to talk the talk but to walk the walk.
And suddenly the paratroopers who were trained in the system got trapped and the system failed them.

[JR-]

“[B]
“Brenus watch your words because I could say something more cruel too”

The problem is the change in the doctrine and to adapt to new menace. In the 80s it was the Red Tempest. I was trained in anti-tank missile unit (Milan) and I was in an Armoured Division, Mechanised Infantry.
Our target was to destroy the combination tank/infantry and to keep the Russian in the German Territory during 3 days, time for the US to cross the Atlantic.
So all projects in armament development were aimed to an armoured confrontation. So Leclerc and Attack Helicopters were developed.
We saw a great deal of improvement for the individual grunts as well. The FAMAS, new uniform, new transmission finally arrived in the units…
But, hoops, no more Warsaw Pact…
Suddenly no more enemy, just peace keeping mission, and usual business in Africa… No more need of Leclerc, Rafale and other costly material… All was on fast intervention, cheap but with high professionals.
THEN need again of heavy material. But, well, the second aircraft carrier was postponed, the delivery of new Leclerc extended on time, the Rafales and its equivalent at sea delayed… Of course, reduction of numbers, all the usual tricks when politicians want to save money. I wonder to pay want because they cut all budget, except theirs of course…

Then we have the attraction for the US model: Technology. The problem is France can’t afford. But it doesn’t matter. We just need a unit able to demonstrate we have the capacity.
Except after a while we have to not only to talk the talk but to walk the walk.
And suddenly the paratroopers who were trained in the system got trapped and the system failed them.

really, what is krook wittering on about, and how does it relate to the matter at hand?

Back on topic: France can afford the technology route, provided it accepts the same tradeoffs the UK made, i.e. smaller forces.

Of course the UK is an island which makes us a lot more secure from "ze panzer divisions rolling across ze ardennes", but i still think it is the right choice, we are past the days of industrial war.

[Meneldil]

Brenus watch your words because I could say something more cruel too.

Now I'm both scared and curious.

Do you somehow found documents stating that France is in fact leading teh evil germano-russo-sionist conspiration against Poland ? Or is it just your usual rant about France betraying Poland in 1939 (wut ?)

As for the topic, I think Louis summarized the issue pretty well : the French army is a way to offer a job and some basic teachings about "how-to-not-completly-screw-up-your-life-by-acting-like-a-scumbag" to uneducated people that would otherwise probably cause some troubles. No wonder it's actually in a sad state, but then again, I don't see why we even need an army at the moment.