Has the papal states ever expanded on your game?

[Lancome]

So I was resuming my Spanish campaign yesterday. I paid the Pope 30,000 florin to attack any Rebel that they came to contact for like 15-20 turns... Mostly I wanted them to fight the darn pirates that were taking advantage of my battered fleet after my war with Milan. Anyhow I made The city of milan Revolt (sabotage) and a turn later Marseille (formerly mine) revolted. Pope sent 2 stacks (1 to each) to attack them and take over them and the pope refused to sell me Marseille for 20,000 florin. Have you ever seen the pope try to be greedy like that before? Even on my 1st game as venice the Papal states didnt expand after I gave them Antioch and Damascus.

[PBI]

Sometimes it expands, sometimes it doesn't. If it does so it usually seems to do it against Milan. I think its mostly determined by whether anyone is stupid enough to attack the Pope; the Pope has huge advantages against Catholics (instant excommunication and likely imminent attacks from all neighbours) but I don't think he normally goes looking for trouble himself unless he gets it into his head to go after Ajaccio.

Incidentally, if a faction has 3 or less settlements they will either not sell them at all or will sell them only for a truly extortionate sum. If you really want Marseille you could try first taking a worthless out-of-the-way settlement and gifting it to the Pope before attempting to buy Marseille.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Sometimes it expands, sometimes it doesn't. If it does so it usually seems to do it against Milan. I think its mostly determined by whether anyone is stupid enough to attack the Pope; the Pope has huge advantages against Catholics (instant excommunication and likely imminent attacks from all neighbours) but I don't think he normally goes looking for trouble himself unless he gets it into his head to go after Ajaccio.

Incidentally, if a faction has 3 or less settlements they will either not sell them at all or will sell them only for a truly extortionate sum. If you really want Marseille you could try first taking a worthless out-of-the-way settlement and gifting it to the Pope before attempting to buy Marseille.

Whoa, whoa. We need to be realistic here. As ATPG has pointed out on these forums, there is no "head" that the pope or any other faction's leader has.

These are programs. They're just scripts. You're just sitting in front of pixels on a screen. Please, do not pretend again that there is anything else going on here: Having fun with the campaign is not blitzing and therefore, not relevant to our discussions on the .org.

Sue me.

[Ratwar]

I've seen him take Florence quite often in my games, and get into a number of scraps with Milan and sometimes Sicily. Against Milan he doesn't seem to have much success, but Sicily tends to be a bit softer, and loses some territory.

[Uunts - a proud Estonian rebel]

Yes, after I destroyed The Holy Roman faction, the Papal states quickly took the rebel settlement Florence.

[pevergreen]

EDIT: ty tosa.
In my games, if they pope somehow gains a settlement, he starts going on an empire building spree. Same with the Senate in RTW.

AFAIK, as soon as they are gifted/gain land, the scripts enabling them to be passive are disabled/overrun.

[TheLastPrivate]

yes, I've seen the pope take most of Africa and Iberian peninsula and entire Italy during my super-turtle campaign as the turks. Due to my alliance with the pope, the pope would call crusade on me and then cancel allliance with every other catholic nation until they started fighting each other.

[Ramses II CP]

The Pope definitely mixes it up sometimes. It isn't clear what the trigger is, but quite often in my games if I create a lot of rebel territories nearby, or get factions near him excommunicated, or give him lands elsewhere surrounded by excomm/rebels, he'll start on a tear. The funny thing is that even with his limited roster of troops the Pope builds pretty good stacks, and if you wind up at war with him they're slightly tougher than the standard infantry heavy faction stacks.

[gardibolt]

In my first English campaign, the Pope called a crusade against Jerusalem. I joined it, but it took me so long to get there that the Pope took it himself!

The Timurids then showed him who's boss.

[Marauder]

In my current English campaign the pope is relegated to Italy. He tried to take out Milan for most of the game, but failed miserably until I got there and did it for him. The Papal States did manage to call a crusade against Jerusalem against the Mongols. I took it as a chance to start attacking the Mongol's other cities (its late game, so they have a decent chunk of the middle east now), so only the Pope's army made it down to Jerusalem. They took it, and are no surrounded by Mongols. Incidently, I could end my campaign by buying jerusalem from them since it is the only campaign goal I have left (I have 60 provinces at the moment), but that seems like a cheap way of winning.

[Proserpine]

In my current game, the pope has reached northern france (though bypassed Marseille), also holding most of Italy (except Venice and Sicily, I have the latter) and Ajaccio. It is the most expansive papal development I have ever seen, and it can be no coincidence that the Milanese have not been their usual troublesome selves. It's a bit worrying as it could limit my further expansion in Europe and I have never fought a war (as Spain) against the papacy. Maybe I should try it.

The pope often takes Ajaccio. It is a great place to have if you get the papal rear kicked out of Rome. He may have difficulty holding it.

[Marauder]

A related question: Is it best to wait until you've eliminated the rest of the catholic factions before attacking the papacy? Could I simply take all of the papal cities, then assassinate the pope, and be un-excommunicated?

[TevashSzat]

A related question: Is it best to wait until you've eliminated the rest of the catholic factions before attacking the papacy? Could I simply take all of the papal cities, then assassinate the pope, and be un-excommunicated?

Well, regarding the first question, I think that by the time your empire is reasonably established, you should be more than ready for taking on the Papal States and excommunication shouldn't be that bad as long as your economy can stand lower taxes

As for assasinating the pope, its been a while, but I believe even assasins with max subterfuge have way too low of a chance to make that as a plan really feasible

[Marauder]

true, but the pope is a general and I can just kill him easily on the battlefield. I'm not sure what happens to the papacy after I've destroyed the papal states. There is obviously still a pope. Maybe he still wanders around like cardinals do, or he just disapeers...

[Yoyoma1910]

In my last French game he marched a force all the way to Valencia and took it, as all other lands between there and Rome were already taken

[The New Che Guevara]

As for assasinating the pope, its been a while, but I believe even assasins with max subterfuge have way too low of a chance to make that as a plan really feasible

Says you, with my english campaigns, it was just me, the pope and rebels. I had full control, trying to remove the papacy fully (damn impossible) and I just sent my assassin's after him. I have a 95% chance on it working on the pope at one point.

[TevashSzat]

Says you, with my english campaigns, it was just me, the pope and rebels. I had full control, trying to remove the papacy fully (damn impossible) and I just sent my assassin's after him. I have a 95% chance on it working on the pope at one point.

Yeah, but then again it was just down to you 3 as you said. Easily even one fourth of the way to that point would have had your empire robust enough to take on the papacy. It isn't just feasible to assasinate the pope when you're not in that strong of a position and when excommunication still might seriously hinder your empire

[Marius Dynamite]

Has the papal states ever expanded on your game?

They never used to expand in the original versions of the game but since the latest patches came they seem to want to expand all the time. Typically if you attack Sicily as Byzantine then sooner or later the Pope will launch an attack on Naples. Also Florence is usually one of his targets.

If you really want to have some fun then go on crusade, get Jerusalem then sell it to the Pope. It's like waking a sleeping beast. He will easily conquer the holy land and Egypt and probably press on to destroy everything else if given time.

[Lancome]

They never used to expand in the original versions of the game but since the latest patches came they seem to want to expand all the time. Typically if you attack Sicily as Byzantine then sooner or later the Pope will launch an attack on Naples. Also Florence is usually one of his targets.

If you really want to have some fun then go on crusade, get Jerusalem then sell it to the Pope. It's like waking a sleeping beast. He will easily conquer the holy land and Egypt and probably press on to destroy everything else if given time.

Now that you mention it... I would really like to see the Papal states take on the Mongols and the Timurids in the Holy land.... Even with an infinite amount of wealth the Papal states Pool of unit types wouldnt be able to take on the timurids... Just my opinion ... not a fact.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

I moved the British Empire to the Middle East to create my own Crusader state there. I don't know why but for some reason most of the Italians, France and the HRE got excommunicated one after the other and the pope called crusades against them and joined those crusades. He ended up with a lot of real estate after these crusades and controlled Italy, France and southern Germany.

[Monk]

I moved the British Empire to the Middle East to create my own Crusader state there. I don't know why but for some reason most of the Italians, France and the HRE got excommunicated one after the other and the pope called crusades against them and joined those crusades. He ended up with a lot of real estate after these crusades and controlled Italy, France and southern Germany.

I've actually never seen the pope join crusades and have only fought the Papacy once.

I have to admit, that would be pretty cool! Perhaps the pope was at war with one of those factions and the others jumped in due to allies being under attack, ect. No idea what caused it, but I just think it would be interesting to see a very strong papal authority expand beyond Italy.

[HopAlongBunny]

, but I just think it would be interesting to see a very strong papal authority expand beyond Italy.

Present campaign as Venice: gifted pope Zagreb and Durazzo(sp), later Tripoli; the Papacy now controls Greece...all of it :p

Set the Pope on the road to riches and I've been excomm'ed almost the entire game

[Monsieur Alphonse]

I've actually never seen the pope join crusades and have only fought the Papacy once.

I have to admit, that would be pretty cool! Perhaps the pope was at war with one of those factions and the others jumped in due to allies being under attack, ect. No idea what caused it, but I just think it would be interesting to see a very strong papal authority expand beyond Italy.

Especially since patch 1.2 has the pope become more active during the game. His favorite target is Tunis if under the rule of Sicily.

[Iavorios]

I have given the Pope Acre and Jerusalem or Antioch many times. If you do this in the early stages of the game the result (on VH/VH) in almost any time, will be Papal empire in the midle east. Later on the muslims hyave a chance to crush him with jihads, but even after turn 80 the Pope has a chance. Most of the times i just watch how the Pope conquers everything from Cairo to Ikonia and Edesa. The Mongols allways give him a good fight, and as a resolt they are sefearly weken. But at the end the Pope has no chance to stop them and keet his empire. And that is very good, becouse i can imagine how can i fight as a catolick with the papal empire witch has more than 15 provinces. Otherwise fighting the pope is simple. Hit fast and strong. Be sure you can handle attack from ALL your neibors. The campain must be no longer than 2-3 turns, and it must end with the dead of the Pope. Than you need 20- 30,000 fl. for the pece.

[edbenedict77]

Sorry for late reply, late to the party by 3 years :(, well in my HRE H/h long campaign, I marched my army direct to rome and took rome with the pope in it so he died in the seige and i was pardoned (un-excommunicated) ASAP :) but the cardinal college still remains... but NO papal settlements.

[A Nerd]

The pope wanders the countryside when he has no settlements. Usually without an army. He can still excom and all that stuff while he wanders. I have never completely rid myself of the pope during the campaign. Though I always play as a catholic faction.

[Myth]

Whoa, whoa. We need to be realistic here. As ATPG has pointed out on these forums, there is no "head" that the pope or any other faction's leader has.

These are programs. They're just scripts. You're just sitting in front of pixels on a screen. Please, do not pretend again that there is anything else going on here: Having fun with the campaign is not blitzing and therefore, not relevant to our discussions on the .org.

Sue me.

That was a useless reply, If I ever saw one.

OP: The Pope in my games takes one or two cities close to Rome, either rebel or if Milan or Sicily get excommed. I've learned now that giving him free lands in the Holy Land means you can't get access to them as his settlements don't rebel (same hardcoded bonus like the SPQR in RTW I suppose, not sure though). But without my help he doesn't really become a superpower. However, If I do give him some provinces as gifts he then makes a ton of stacks and starts conquering Mulsim territories, usually starting with the pooor battered Moors.

[edbenedict77]

now in my game as h/h HRE, i finally felt sorry for the pope and gave him "Karakov" and later Zagreb :) just to keep the poles and Hungarians at each other's throat while attack the excommunicated danes :) i don't think pope is every aggressive in taking territories , but very aggressive in excommunicating if u attack another christian faction, if u r playing as one too but u can always adjust the pop-o-meter if u give him some turnly florins, as long as u r NOT excommunicated

[Prussian to the Iron]

In my current game, the Papacy has taken Florence, the city north of Florence but south of Venice (which was re-taken by the HRE, only to be taken by Venice, which I am now causing to revolt), Ajaccio, and a few Moorish holdings in north Africa.

[Righteous Arrow]

The pope, in my actual campaing is a pain in the ass. He has all the african territory and making way through milan and genova. He has 4 arms in a roll, with 3000~4000 manpower. Playing N/N (new in the game) with England, having almost all the central europe and the Iberia. Time to send some assassins.