The politics of games.

DRM, while it has to do with the games, is merely copy protection that exists outside the scope of gameplay and is not limited to just games. It has virtually nothing do with the actual gameplay. We already have a forum devoted to such technical aspects.

Um, so now you want us to talk about DRM in the hardware and software forum? The arena isn't just solely for discussing gameplay, but games, and DRM significantly affects games. There are many other things discussed in the arena that aren't strictly gameplay, so...

What's the big problem?

CR

Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae

DRM, while it has to do with the games, is merely copy protection that exists outside the scope of gameplay and is not limited to just games. It has virtually nothing do with the actual gameplay. We already have a forum devoted to such technical aspects.

Now you've changed your stance, and as I've seen a few Backroomers in this thread you will be equally cheered for "Seeing the light" and ridiculed for "Caving in" usually by those who were uninterested before

But seriously, I don't see the problem with how the Arena operates at the minute, the threads cover the games in all of their aspects, positive and negative, if it focuses too much on one side it is gently nudged back on track, I believe this is the best for the actual gamers who might be trying to find out more info on the game before buying.

Hmmpf, now I don't know where to post what I just found, but actually I think the idea with the Hard- and Software forum isn't all that bad because DRM as it's called (I prefer copy protection because it sounds more spot-on) is basically, as I understand it, a piece of Software that the actual game is wrapped into and gives or denies access to the game, at least in theory. It's also wrong that every game has it's own DRM because it's usually SecuROM that annoys people but with different optional checks and stuff, the barebones SecuROM has no installation limits while the one used for some of them EA titles does. I think a simple sticky thread with a list of games with evil copy protection would be the least confusing option for everyone:

• Spore - SecuROM, 3 activations, internet access for activations required
• Medieval 2: Total War - SecuROM, checks for DVD on startup
• Gothic 3 - Tages, Checks for DVD on Startup and during loading screens

or maybe a table with

Game Type of CP Details

A bit like this, although similar lists might be available on other sites but if ordered alphabetically and updated regularly in the first post of a sticky it would, IMO, provide the best oversight and allow people to quickly check at any time. This would best fit in the Arena in my opinion while the technicalities of copy protection would fit in well with the Hard- and Software forum, which I'm going to try out now.

An excellent idea, Husar, and it would certainly be a resource for the whole community. You write it up, I'll sticky it instantly.

Would something like this be helpful?

Originally Posted by Lemur

An excellent idea, Husar, and it would certainly be a resource for the whole community. You write it up, I'll sticky it instantly.

Maybe when I'm bored, apart from the games I put into my last post I'd have to look most of them up myself.

Sorry, had a few issues and couldn't get the org to load for nearly a week.

TosaInu has my meaning right. Once the point is made (if you want to buy the game you should it has bad DRM, be warned!) it doesn't need to be made over and over and over ... and over. It's when that happens that the topic wanders like a little puppy.

We do need a couple of posts pointing out if a game has a nasty DRM which people may wish to be aware of before they purchase. I know I'm not alone in finding this useful.

We do not need half a page of posts all saying the DRM is bad, that the poster won't be buying, that it's a disgrace, etc etc.

It is when we hit the half a page that Kek or I would politely note that perhaps the topic is wandering a bit too much.

One other factlet to add to the mix: I'm one of the more hands-off mods here. I prefer a nudge over a shoulder barge, and if I think something will sort itself then I give it chance to. I know some people think I'm lax and soft because of it. When it comes to calling time on something off-topic I probably don't step in soon enough. So if I feel compelled to step in and say a thread has wandered too far chances are it really, truly has.



The Spore thread was teetering on the brink of being swamped. Maybe it had already staggered over the edge. But then it righted itself, and the DRM talk vanished and gameplay related discussion took the lead. The point where this swap over in focus happened is the point where this topic thudded into the foreground. Coincidence or not, I was happy to see it, and truth be told I have never held any interest in Spore (always sounded like a multi-million pound disappointment in the making IMO), and think that its DRM is a complete disgrace which should be nailed up and burned.

So one might say that all is settled of its own accord, if one is being optimistic

Originally Posted by Martok

Hey, now! I'll have you know that some of us do our part, thank you very much. I spend way too much time talking about games and not enough time playing them (heck, it's pretty much my MO at this point).

I'm glad to see that at least one person here understands his duty. :salutes:

Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae

DRM, while it has to do with the games, is merely copy protection that exists outside the scope of gameplay and is not limited to just games. It has virtually nothing do with the actual gameplay. We already have a forum devoted to such technical aspects.

This actually makes a lot of sense. Pure DRM topics would be better discussed in the hardware/software forum, than in the Arena. Most DRM threads start out as a DRM thread and cover nothing but the DRM on the game disc. Discussions of this kind of crapware would be better suited to the hardware/software forum and would also attract more interest there.

I would say move those threads to hardware/software on the basis that they are not really gaming, but also move any future securom debates in the ETW or M2TW forum there as well. Those threads that are not purely DRM but just touch on the issue should maybe be left where they are.

Personally I would prefer this approach than creating yet more subfora that will simply end up as glorified recycle bins.

Originally Posted by Kekvit Irae

DRM, while it has to do with the games, is merely copy protection that exists outside the scope of gameplay and is not limited to just games. It has virtually nothing do with the actual gameplay. We already have a forum devoted to such technical aspects.

Gamers use forums like this for more than just current gameplay discussion. We also use them to decide which new games to buy, based on the opinion of a community we value and trust. Like it or not, DRM is an important consideration for how we're going to be spending our money on PC games these days. The only time we can make a meaningful decision about it is before we purchase the game. You know, by talking about the dreaded subject of DRM? The feedback from early adopters is especially useful, as we decide whether to plunk down our cash on a new game, or not.

So there's your answer:

If you really don't want to be annoyed by seeing DRM conversation, then just just disallow any discussion of upcoming or newly released PC game titles in the Arena. Of course that would kill off most of the PC gaming discussion there, but you wouldn't see those "annoying" DRM threads...

I think the point here is that posting about a game and mentioning that it has DRM is one thing, but the full blown anti DRM threads are another. It's better that the former remain in the Arena and the latter are moved to the hardware/software forum.

Originally Posted by Cynwulf

I think the point here is that posting about a game and mentioning that it has DRM is one thing, but the full blown anti DRM threads are another. It's better that the former remain in the Arena and the latter are moved to the hardware/software forum.

Sounds reasonable to me. I do think that still leaves some things up in the air, like where my thread about Spore's Amazon protest belongs, but I trust FBE's and Kek's discretion in that regard.

Originally Posted by Cynwulf

I think the point here is that posting about a game and mentioning that it has DRM is one thing, but the full blown anti DRM threads are another. It's better that the former remain in the Arena and the latter are moved to the hardware/software forum.

You hit it right on the nail.