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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    I have always been disgusted by this increasing eugenic trend. What do you think? If upwards of 90% of individuals who think that their child will be born with Downs Syndrome kill that child, that means a number of pro-lifers are hypocrites or just utterly confused. On the flip side, how can those who believe that society must protect those who are born different encourage such a trend through the use of amniocentesis and eugenic eradication of a legitimate minority of exceptionally interesting people?

    What is your opinion?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Importance of Trig Being

    By Michael Gerson
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    WASHINGTON -- In addition to Barack Obama making history as the first African-American to be nominated for president and Sarah Palin taking her shotgun to the glass ceiling, there was a third civil rights barrier broken at the political conventions this year.

    Trig Paxson Van Palin -- pronounced by his mother "beautiful" and "perfect" and applauded at center stage of the Republican convention -- smashed the chromosomal barrier. And it was all the more moving for the innocence and indifference of this 4-month-old civil rights leader

    It was not always this way. When John F. Kennedy's younger sister Rosemary was born mentally disabled in 1918, it was treated as a family secret. For decades Rosemary was hidden as a "childhood victim of spinal meningitis." Joseph Kennedy subjected his daughter to a destructive lobotomy at age 23. It was the remarkable Eunice Kennedy Shriver who talked openly of her sister's condition in 1962 and went on to found the Special Olympics as a summer camp in her backyard -- part of a great social movement of compassion and inclusion.

    Trig's moment in the spotlight is a milestone of that movement. But it comes at a paradoxical time. Unlike African-Americans and women, civil rights protections for people with Down syndrome have rapidly eroded over the last few decades. Of the cases of Down syndrome diagnosed by pre-natal testing each year, about 90 percent are eliminated by abortion. Last year the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists recommended universal, early testing for Down syndrome -- not just for older pregnant women. Some expect this increased screening to reduce the number of Down syndrome births far lower than the 5,500 we see today, perhaps to less than 1,000.

    The wrenching diagnosis of 47 chromosomes must seem to parents like the end of a dream instead of the beginning of a life. But children born with Down syndrome -- who learn slowly but love deeply -- are generally not experienced by their parents as a curse but as a complex blessing. And when allowed to survive, men and women with an extra chromosome experience themselves as people with abilities, limits and rights. Yet when Down syndrome is detected through testing, many parents report that genetic counselors and physicians emphasize the difficulties of raising a disabled child and urge abortion.

    This is properly called eugenic abortion -- the ending of "imperfect" lives to remove the social, economic and emotional costs of their existence. And this practice cannot be separated from the broader social treatment of the disabled. By eliminating less perfect humans, deformity and disability become more pronounced and less acceptable. Those who escape the net of screening are often viewed as mistakes or burdens. A tragic choice becomes a presumption -- "Didn't you get an amnio?" -- and then a prejudice. And this feeds a social Darwinism in which the stronger are regarded as better, the dependant are viewed as less valuable, and the weak must occasionally be culled.

    The protest against these trends has come in interesting forms. Last year pro-choice Sen. Edward Kennedy joined with pro-life Sen. Sam Brownback to propose a bill that would have required medical professionals to tell expectant parents that genetic tests are sometimes inaccurate and to give them up-to-date information on the quality of life that people with Down syndrome can enjoy. The bill did not pass, but it was a principled gesture from Rosemary's brother.
    Yet the pro-choice radicalism held by Kennedy and many others -- the absolute elevation of individual autonomy over the rights of the weak -- has enabled the new eugenics. It has also created a moral conflict at the heart of the Democratic Party. If traditional Democratic ideology means anything, it is the assertion that America is a single moral community that includes everyone. How can this vision possibly be reconciled with the elimination of Down syndrome children from American society? Are pro-choice Democrats really comfortable with this choice?

    The family struggles of political leaders can be morally instructive. Contrast the attitude of Joseph Kennedy with that of Charles de Gaulle, who treated his daughter Anne, born with Down syndrome in 1928, with great affection. The image of this arrogant officer rocking Anne in his arms at night speaks across the years. After her death and burial at the age of 20, de Gaulle turned to his wife and said, "Come. Now she is like the others."

    And now we have met Trig, who is just like the others, in every way that matters.


    michaelgerson@cfr.org
    Copyright 2008, Washington Post Writers Group

    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-11-2008 at 01:46.
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    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Well, you must think about how difficult it would be for parents to have a child with downs syndrome.

    I am ambivalent towards eugenics. I see what it must be used at one point in the future, but I see no reason why it should be practiced now.

    Basically, humans have stopped or at least hindered natural selection from occuring to the human species. As a result, the human gene pool will continually worsen as the centuries (more likely millenias) progress. While it would be inhumane now to euthanize those with severe genetically inherited diseases, think about this: Would you want at some very very distant point in the future to have a human population where maybe 50% of the people born have some sever condition that greatly hinders their ability to contribute to society.
    "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Post Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TevashSzat View Post
    Basically, humans have stopped or at least hindered natural selection from occuring to the human species. As a result, the human gene pool will continually worsen as the centuries (more likely millenias) progress.
    Untrue. Not every guy and gal who is born gets to breed. We might be able to change our environment, but that does not mean we all survive the changed environment.

    Those who can drink, drive and survive will breed children with a higher propensity to be functional alcoholics. While those who can't drink, drive and survive get a bronze medallion in the Darwin Awards.

    Other ways our modern environment eliminates those not 'suitable':
    Those who can binge on drugs, survive and breed vs those who take a single E and die. Think about some of those old rockers who have done heaps of drugs, survived and went on to bred. Then think about the many youngsters who die from drugs. Yes the deaths are tragic, but the overall effect is that you have a race that is more likely to survive hard core drugs.

    Gaming. At least in Korea it is eliminating some of those who play so long and ignore basics like food, sleep and toilet breaks to the point that their internal organs breakdown and they die at the keyboard. A simple AFK to prolong life. Again individuals eliminated from the gene pool because they can't survive the modern environment.

    Now from the rest who do survive, not all of them have the opportunity to mate let alone reproduce. Look at the Trumps, Bransons and others... multiple wives and children for them means somewhere someone else missed out.

    Women are still very selective about who they will have children with. And as long as at least one half of the species is then we will still have sexual selection shaping our future.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    'Abortion' is just a polite euphemism for killing a child. It's always wrong.
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    Bopa Member Incongruous's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Why do you hate God Nav ?
    Hahaha!
    I wondered when someone would pick him up on that.

    Anyway, I know that this is an awful thing to say but wouldn't the world be better without parents struggling to bring up children who lack the ability to live in this world?

    Yes I know that we then may leave ourselves open to all sorts of disturbing questions, why not just get rid of all ugly kids? Or something, but Down's syndrome is an awful defect for everyone involved.

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    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar View Post
    Anyway, I know that this is an awful thing to say but wouldn't the world be better without parents struggling to bring up children who lack the ability to live in this world?
    why do you feel that is an "awful thing to say"? it's a perfectly sensible question.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

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    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar View Post
    Anyway, I know that this is an awful thing to say but wouldn't the world be better without parents struggling to bring up children who lack the ability to live in this world?
    Hey...I´m for whatever that gets the highway moving faster....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar View Post

    Yes I know that we then may leave ourselves open to all sorts of disturbing questions, why not just get rid of all ugly kids? Or something, but Down's syndrome is an awful defect for everyone involved.
    I don´t see the slippery slope there....Down's syndrome is a disease, a easily identifiable genetic flaw at that....who´s to say a kid is ugly?...that´s a personal interpretation issue.
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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Bopa the Magyar View Post
    Hahaha!
    Anyway, I know that this is an awful thing to say but wouldn't the world be better without parents struggling to bring up children who lack the ability to live in this world?
    I agree with Big John, this IS a sensible question and probably the question the parents ask themselves before making a choice.

    I do not know how I would choose if I were to find out my unborn child were to have a serious defect. But I do know that I would not make it illegal for someone else to make a choice. I consider the ability to control a family’s direction one of the greatest freedoms and taking that away with law is a blatant raping of the idea of freedom.

    If someone feels so passionately about “life” then they should encourage people struggling with the decision by supporting them and offering to be there for them. It is too easy to arm-chair quarterback the decision while not taking any responsibility for the decision you have forced someone to make.

    If YOU want someone to have their defect baby then YOU should offer to be there to help them raise that baby, if YOU are not going to be there then YOU don’t have any say in the decision.
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TevashSzat View Post
    Well, you must think about how difficult it would be for parents to have a child with downs syndrome.

    I am ambivalent towards eugenics. I see what it must be used at one point in the future, but I see no reason why it should be practiced now.

    Basically, humans have stopped or at least hindered natural selection from occuring to the human species. As a result, the human gene pool will continually worsen as the centuries (more likely millenias) progress. While it would be inhumane now to euthanize those with severe genetically inherited diseases, think about this: Would you want at some very very distant point in the future to have a human population where maybe 50% of the people born have some sever condition that greatly hinders their ability to contribute to society.
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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    I have always been disgusted by this increasing eugenic trend. What do you think? If upwards of 90% of individuals who think that their child will be born with Downs Syndrome kill that child, that means a number of pro-lifers are hypocrites or just utterly confused. On the flip side, how can those who believe that society must protect those who are born different encourage such a trend through the use of amniocentesis and eugenic eradication of a legitimate minority of exceptionally interesting people?

    What is your opinion?
    Lets suppose for a minute that those same 90% have the ability to alter the DNA profile of the child to eliminate the chance of downs syndrome or some other disease. Would you be so cavalier in your proclomation of eugenics then?

    This smells like a veiled insinuation on abortion and to be honest thats an argument that just isnt going to be won.

    Why? Because morals and ethics are normally self created conditions based on personal experiences. Even the ones commonly shared are opened to interpretation by the individual with there own ability to produce logic. Attempting to codify it with an appeal to someones sense of morals, from your own moralistic point of view is insincere at best, cleverly worded hyperbloe at the worst.
    Last edited by Odin; 09-11-2008 at 02:34. Reason: I wanted to be more insulting
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    It's very very wrong, people should'nt have a say in what deserves to live.

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    Master Procrastinator Member TevashSzat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    It's very very wrong, people should'nt have a say in what deserves to live.
    Well, then what is probably not the correct term to refer to a person heh?
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TevashSzat View Post
    Well, then what is probably not the correct term to refer to a person heh?
    Hehe that is just mean and I like it, you will just have to forgive a linguistical screwup from us non-anglo-saxons. But really, abortion absolutily disgusts me in certain grades, when it's just a matter of convenience it is simply disgusting, when it is about disqualifying a life it's an absolute atrocity. I worked as a volunteer with people with down-syndrome and I can tell you thay they prefer to be alive. It's so very very wrong I simply can't believe that some consider it to be progress.

    @ze lemur
    Death penalty is different, the people that get it have proved they don't deserve to be alive, when you are man enough to take a life you have to give back exactly that. I am a fond supporter of euthanesia and death penalty, but abortion is completily denying someone a chance.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-11-2008 at 03:37.

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    It's very very wrong, people should'nt have a say in what deserves to live.
    That isn't a realistic position to take, unless you want to become a pro-life absolutist. Death penalty? That's people having a say in who lives and who dies. Decisions on end-of-life medical care? Same. Battlefield triage? Same. I know a couple who's opted for in vitro fertilization. They pick which fertilized eggs get slapped in the womb. They're deciding which blastocysts get a chance to be embryos. Should we stop them?

    If you think we're experiencing a eugenicide of Downs Syndrome children, just wait until you can identify if your embryo is likely gay. Then we're going to see a whole new slice of the population cease to exist.

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    I know a couple who's opted for in vitro fertilization.
    Just to chime in here- I think in vitro fertilization is morally wrong for more or less the reasons you give. They fertilize a bunch of eggs, use a few and discard the rest.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 09-11-2008 at 03:59.
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    'Abortion' is just a polite euphemism for killing a child. It's always wrong. It's not 'more wrong' than 'normal' abortions when it's based on a trait. 'Normal abortions' are not less wrong. They are all diabolically wrong and should be illegal and punishable with severe penalties.

    I know a couple who's opted for in vitro fertilization. They pick which fertilized eggs get slapped in the womb. They're deciding which blastocysts get a chance to be embryos. Should we stop them?
    Yes! We should stop them. This too should be every bit as illegal and punishable with severe penalties.
    Last edited by Navaros; 09-11-2008 at 04:06.

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Just to chime in here- I think in vitro fertilization is morally wrong for more or less the reasons you give. They fertilize a bunch of eggs, use a few and discard the rest.
    I'm pretty certain that those born through in vitro fertilization prefer to be alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    Downs syndrome is not as disabling as people are making it seem. I really want to hear what you would say if people aborted their children who they believed would be gay. It's their choice? What about sex selected abortions in other countries? Is that their choice as well? Nobody has answered those distinct questions, unless they wanted their generically callous response to be the standard.

    Some say that their may be a God gene. Should parents select out those who have it? Those who do not? The question can apply to everything.
    Personally I wouldn't like it and would like to see a societal pressure against it, but I wouldn't forbid it, as the law would be useless and still too dominant in practice.

    Now it's your turn, if the parents could avoid it before it even came to the fertilised egg, would your opinion change on any of the matters? Would you still maintain "life is sacred" if the child would be born in constant terrible pain and die after a few years?
    Would any of your oppinions change if the embryo could be genetically "fixed"?
    Last edited by Ironside; 09-11-2008 at 18:45.
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Just to chime in here- I think in vitro fertilization is morally wrong for more or less the reasons you give. They fertilize a bunch of eggs, use a few and discard the rest.
    Agreed.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by Odin View Post
    Why? Because morals and ethics are normally self created conditions based on personal experiences. Even the ones commonly shared are opened to interpretation by the individual with there own ability to produce logic. Attempting to codify it with an appeal to someones sense of morals, from your own moralistic point of view is insincere at best, cleverly worded hyperbloe at the worst.
    And yet that side lost the argument about slavery, even though we live in some sort of Sartrean mishmash of arbitrary ethics. The way forward is inclusion and sanctity of life. Your way has been tried and has failed due to its inherent moral repugnance. Lives should be safeguarded, especially those lives that cannot provide their own protection from people with such a confused abhorrance of basic ethical principles.

    If people were executing unborn homosexuals or children with autism I would be saying the same thing that I am now.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 09-11-2008 at 04:44.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    And yet that side lost the argument about slavery, even though we live in some sort of Sartrean mishmash of arbitrary ethics. The way forward is inclusion and sanctity of life. Your way has been tried and has failed due to its inherent moral repugnance. Lives should be safeguarded, especially those lives that cannot provide their own protection from people with such a confused abhorrance of basic ethical principles.

    If people were executing unborn homosexuals or children with autism I would be saying the same thing that I am now.
    Damn straight, isn't being alive the utmost human right? Your legitimacy to actually be it starts from day one. Nobody should have the right to decide for someone else what is a worthy life and what is not that is just projection.

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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    TSM:

    While I agree with the moral stance you advance here, I fear that you are trying to command the tide.

    Eugenics has been practiced, formally or informally, by most if not all human cultures. Several cultures currently use ultrasound tests to determine a child's sex -- and fate. Genetic mapping will ensure that many people have the tools to note the presence of abnormal physical/mental conditions and they will act on it.


    Navaros:

    Making abortion illegal and severely punished can only reduce the number of deaths not truly stop abortion. Preventing all abortion will only occur if people change their minds about the nature of life and what has value -- and that can never be legislated or coerced, only persuasion can make such a change (and prayer).
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    Dux Nova Scotia Member lars573's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Eugenics is just the old school first step. Tradition you see. Have a defective/unwanted child? Disgard it, you can always have another. Abortion is just the high tech industiralized way of going about the disgarding part. Saves you the emotional trauma of actually seeing the baby as you heave her/him into the dump/river/woods.



    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    The way forward is inclusion and sanctity of life.
    Inclusion is a joke. And a bad one at that. As is sanctity of life. Ultimately human life is disposible. Unless our race went though a BSG like reduction in numbers.
    Last edited by lars573; 09-11-2008 at 05:42.
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    boy of DESTINY Senior Member Big_John's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    What is your opinion?
    choice should be the parent's (final say being the mother's). i have no problem with abortion.
    now i'm here, and history is vindicated.

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    Filthy Rich Member Odin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Eugenic Annihilation of Children with Down's Syndrome

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff View Post
    Your way has been tried and has failed due to its inherent moral repugnance.
    God that was beautiful I almost cried. Since were making the whole argument circular Tuff lets put the "life argument" this way.

    Lets suppose for a minute I am employed by our government (by extension you) and they send me somewhere to spy on these people called militants, I fnd them and call my HQ they send in an airstrike and the lot go up in flames.

    Was my action unethical because someone died? Or ethical because I was commanded to do a job on what is technically your behalf?

    Last edited by Odin; 09-11-2008 at 12:23. Reason: Wanted to be less insulting
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