There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
now i'm here, and history is vindicated.
There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford
My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.
I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.
My only point is in my sig really.
hmmm I can see how this didn't quite work seemed like a good idea at the time. Scuzi for muslim remark was meant comical. We are doing just fine by the way, other countries can learn from us the debate is extremily harsh compared to our neighbours politically correct wishthinking, we are going to be just fine.
Last edited by Fragony; 09-13-2008 at 03:51.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Really , then you won't mind naming the pre-natal process that gives your imaginary 100% accurate diagnosis then will youBull. The condition is known right around 5th month of pregnancy. The diagnosis is absolute, and there are no degrees of down's syndrome. You either have it, or you don't.
As for the second part of that post John said enough already , and what was written was perfectly clear
What, you never seen a Polock in Viking Armor on a Camel?
Much to learn you still have, padawan... get a clue you must.
"Amniocentesis
This procedure is used to collect amniotic fluid, the liquid that is in the womb. It's performed in the doctor's office or in the hospital on an "out-patient" basis. A needle is inserted through the mother's abdominal wall into the uterus, using ultrasound to guide the needle. Approximately one ounce of fluid is taken for testing. This fluid contains fetal cells that can be examined for chromosome tests. It takes about 2 weeks to determine if the fetus has Down syndrome or not.
Amniocentesis is usually carried out between the 14th and 18th week of pregnancy; some doctors may do them as early as the 13th week. Side effects to the mother include cramping, bleeding, infection and leaking of amniotic fluid afterwards. There is a slight increase in the risk of miscarriage: the normal rate of miscarriage at this time of pregnancy is 2 to 3%, and amniocentesis increases that risk by an additional 1/2 to 1%. Amniocentesis is not recommended before the 14th week of pregnancy due to a higher risk of complications and loss of pregnancy.
Which mothers should have an amniocentesis? The current recommendations by professional obstetric groups is that women with a risk of having a child with Down syndrome of 1 in 250 or greater should be offered amniocentesis. There is controversy over whether to use the risk at the time of screening or the predicted risk at the time of birth. (The risk at the time of screening is higher since many fetuses with Down syndrome abort spontaneously around the time of screening or afterwards."
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
"Slight increase in risk of miscarriage"
Hardly something for all is it?
A risk of 1 in 500 would be considered minor, but if the odds of having the down's in the first place is only 1:250 it's not that different.
Going the other way and testing all, you'll cause thousands of miscarriages a year to ensure that there are no down's babies.
So, first off you're saying it's absolutely known, then if the odds ratio are worse than 1:250 they test you?
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
I dont know if this was posted before in this thread, but how is abortion bad if the foetus is aborted before there is any actual brain activity in the foetus??? I.e. How can you kill something if it's not alive??? Simply put, the bible says Life begins at conception, scientists have already scanned a Foetus and figured out that the brain is not active, until a certain point in time, so ergo life DOES NOT begin at the moment of conception. The bible is wrong, (YEAH I SAID IT! WHAT!!!) and abortion is okay. If you abort a foetus that has brain activity, that is murder.
oh, and i dont agree with "eugenic abortion" I was born with Cerebral Palsy, myself. I have a cousin with Downs Syndrome. Hes pretty cool. He even has a SMOKIN girlfriend.
Do you hate Drug Cartels? Do You believe that the Drug War is basically a failure? Do you think that if we Legalized the Cannabis market, that use rates would drop, we could put age limits on cannabis, tax it, and other wise regulate it? Join The ORG Marijuana Policy Project!
In American politics, similar to British politics, we have a choice between being shot in our left testicle or the right testicle. Both parties advocate pissing on the little guys, only in different ways and to a different little guy.
It is you who are without a clue as that process does not have a 100% detection rate .Much to learn you still have, padawan... get a clue you must.
Get a clue you must...
"The syndrome is caused by the duplication of one member of chromosome pair 21, a condition called trisomy 21. It can be verified with 100% accuracy by two prenatal tests: chorionic villus sampling or amniocentesis. Both procedures require removing cells from the fetus for testing and entail a small risk of producing a spontaneous abortion. Screening tests are used to identify high-risk pregnancies, minimizing the number who undergo the more invasive tests."
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Last edited by woad&fangs; 09-13-2008 at 17:21. Reason: removed comments which were in bad taste
Why did the chicken cross the road?
So that its subjects will view it with admiration, as a chicken which has the daring and courage to boldly cross the road,
but also with fear, for whom among them has the strength to contend with such a paragon of avian virtue? In such a manner is the princely
chicken's dominion maintained. ~Machiavelli
"The syndrome is caused by the duplication of one member of chromosome pair 21, a condition called trisomy 21. It can be verified with 100% accuracy by two prenatal tests
Thats rather lazy Rvg .
The result is not 100% accurate it is 99.4% accurate for the test you named and 97.4% using the Chorionic villus test , not counting Chorionic villus tests that did not give unambigous results which had to be followed with amniocentisis tests (which is curious since your claim of The diagnosis is absolutedoesn't quite fit with the words not unambigous does it).
Now it is possible to find papers of studies that give a higher accuracy in their research for the amniocentis method , as high as 98.8 even , but not the magic elusive 100% you claim . And it is also possible to find studies that give much lower accuracy for both tests .
You really need to get a clue before you try and come up with the 100% nonsense
BTW with that CV test what are the test results of normal healthy fetus being terminated due to the actual proceedure ? Does it vary from 3% if it is done right first time to over 10 % if repeated attempts are required ?
Last edited by Tribesman; 09-13-2008 at 16:20.
Well said yesdachi
But, I have a question.
If abortion is allowed, do you think the taxpayers should support the parents of a disabled child and offer to be there for them?
After all, the parents had the "free choice" of keeping or not keeping the child, so if they chose to keep the child, should they have to face the consequences of their "free choice" and take care of the disabled child themselves, without any support from the state/the taxpayers?
I'm not trying to put words in yesdachi's mouth, but this is just a question that came up in my mind when reading his post
To determine whether a "clump of cells" is human life or not, is not exact science.
Imagine going to the gynecologist with your pregnant wife for an echography after 8 weeks of pregnance, only to see a dead little thingy where there should have been a heartbeat visible or, even better, watch the heartbeat of your child after six weeks of pregnancy, come back two weeks later and see that the heartbeat has disappeared...
Millions of people have to go through the experience of a miscarriage in an early state of pregnancy and I can tell you that losing "a brainless clump of cells" is devastating. You won't find many of those people agreeing with your statements about "clump of cells" or "non-issues".
I certainly don't.
Calling a fetus "non human" or a "clump of cells" is very distasteful and disrespectful imho.
Last edited by Andres; 09-13-2008 at 18:19.
Andres is our Lord and Master and could strike us down with thunderbolts or beer cans at any time. ~Askthepizzaguy
Ja mata, TosaInu
Zeg je nu, niet bij jou hoop ik?
"If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
Albert Camus "Noces"
Re: ultrasound scans where the heartbeat is not there...
A scan is done on a woman. No heart beat is seen patient opts to have products of conception removed. Post procedure she has a followup scan to see if they got it all... At this point a heartbeat is seen.
The second ultrasound was done by a midwife who kicked it up the chain of seniority as fast as she could (collared the first doctor she found - me). I did the same and took it to the first consultant I found. He sat there in silence looking at one report, then the other. Surely similar names or something else has happened??!?
Finally he goes to talk to the relatives. They go away smiling. Neither I nor the midwife wanted to know what had been said. Probably something like the logic: baby was dead, we did a procedure, and now it's alive! Modern medicine is great, eh?
Taxpayers fork out for known disabled? I'd say no.
I would also say that at risk women would be less likely to want to know in case they then get lumbered with a bill for the rest of their life.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
sorry BG
Last edited by Fragony; 09-13-2008 at 19:16.
Imperialism, I cry!!Originally Posted by Frag
This is a Dutch-based site. What gives the Anglosaxons the right to proclaim their language the sole mode of communication?
It's fine with me that milk-drinking surrender monkeys like Fragony give in, but I demand equal recognition of French or I am out!
Clearly, the Backroom does not work if we all post in different languages. I understand the practical impossibilities of that. Hence, I suggest as a compromise that we limit as official languages of the Backroom English and French.
few things are.
abortion is a philosophical question for most people, not a solely scientific judgment. the philosophical question of import is:
when does the fetus become a person deserving of personal rights that supersede the mother's rights of personal determination over her own life and body? science can be used to help you come to an answer to that question, but it can never be an 'exact science'.
now i'm here, and history is vindicated.
The fetus becomes a person with individual rights as soon as we see that the fetus' brain is active and it is therefore, alive.
Oh, and W&F, i didnt say that the bible mentions abortion, but the Pro-Lifers say that life begins at conception and they use the bible as their justification for that statement. We have scientifically proven that false.
Do you hate Drug Cartels? Do You believe that the Drug War is basically a failure? Do you think that if we Legalized the Cannabis market, that use rates would drop, we could put age limits on cannabis, tax it, and other wise regulate it? Join The ORG Marijuana Policy Project!
In American politics, similar to British politics, we have a choice between being shot in our left testicle or the right testicle. Both parties advocate pissing on the little guys, only in different ways and to a different little guy.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
"If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill
Does that mean someone who has not brain activity not alive?
Again, if you are speaking in scientific terms life "continues" at conception.
Now life is all around in different forms. We kill animals for food every day and they mean very little to anyone. Now if one of those animals is someones pet, that animals life now means something more. Same goes for a fetus. If it is not wanted is does not have the same value as a fetus that is wanted.
What, you never seen a Polock in Viking Armor on a Camel?
I beg to differ. That fetus still has the opportunity of growing up and living a full life, and therefore has value. If the parents don't want it, give it to an adoption agency, where there are many foster parents who will love and cherish an adopted child as their own.
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