Results 1 to 30 of 72

Thread: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Member Member PBI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,176

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    I actually feel that gunpowder combat will be more interesting than medieval melee-oriented combat, both as a spectacle (guns make cool booms) and on a tactical level. Here are a few reasons why:

    * Lots of gunpowder means a lot less sieges and more field battles. You're worried that gunpowder battles will be a tactic-free mindless shootout? You feel that gunpowder makes combat random, cruel and impersonal? Well, tell me how exactly that does not apply to, say, trying to take a well-defended Citadel using only masses of spear militia? A situation where the only strategy available is a hopeless WWI style frontal charge into certain death, with victory achieved only by wearing the defenders down in mindless, tedious attrition. I personally feel that if the advent of gunpowder reduces the frequency of sieges to roughly the same frequency as bridge battles, that would be a big plus for gunpowder right off the bat whatever the battles are like.

    * It is important to remember that in M2TW, gunpowder existed in the game primarily to show that the old ways of warfare were obsolete. As such their use was always going to be one-dimensional; musket tactics consist of Zulu-style blasting away at masses of armoured melee infantry until they are all dead or they close the distance, while cannon tactics consist of coolly blasting a single cannonball through a vastly expensive but outdated stone fortification and bringing the entire pompous edifice crashing down. There was almost no gunpowder vs gunpowder combat since the AI would simply spam masses of militia to send into the meat grinder, never teching up enough to train gunners, and since pikes were useless, cannons were useless on the field and cavalry were ridiculously powerful there was no chance of any meaningful tactical interplay between pikes, muskets, cannon and cavalry.

    In ETW meanwhile, gunpowder will take center stage. True, one of the methods you can use to fight musketeers with musketeers is to line up at 50 paces and keep blasting away until one side breaks. But even with that one tactical option, there is a whole plethora of tactics you can use to ensure that it is your side that is left standing. There is just as much emphasis on the benefits of flanking as ever (which lets face it, is the only real trick in the bag in melee combat), to gain enfilade fire on the enemy gunners. Terrain is even more important than ever; in M2TW, a wall or farmhouse is battlefield decoration. In ETW, it will be a massive force multiplier and a key tactical feature of the battlefield. Rather than every battle being a straightforward head-to-head charge to melee combat followed by the usual scramble to the flanks, we will have longer, more thoughtful affairs, both sides skirmishing and maneuvering for some time in order to gain the upper hand in the ensuing musket exchange.

    To boil down the two previous paragraphs, gunpowder combat will be better than pure melee because gunpowder gives two options: Stand off and fire, or charge to melee. Neither is dominant and the chances of success of each varies independently. Melee has only one option: Charge to melee. All the other tactics in melee battle are essentially just ways of improving the odds of success of that one option.

    * Gunpowder is democratic. In medieval warfare, the nobles on their heavy chargers dominate all. The peasants are essentially driven to the field against their will with worthless weapons and no armour and hurled in to do the jobs the knights can't be bothered with or don't deem glorious enough. They have next to no chance of defending themselves against a knight on horseback coated in lavishly expensive armour.

    In the age of gunpowder, the field is more even. No longer can the spoiled noble wade through the more lowly troops with impunity; instead, the cavalry must accept some humility, yield to the superiority of the infantry and wait for their moment. A musket ball will kill a baron just as easily as a peasant. The nobleman must treat his underlings with respect, because if he does not, the masses can rise against him en masse, bring his pompous cavalry charge crashing down with an efficient, democratic volley of musket fire, and send him to the guillotine. Vive la revolucion!
    Last edited by PBI; 09-14-2008 at 00:42.

  2. #2
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    25,830

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    I will cede the points:

    1. Objects on the battlefield now have tactical value.
    2. Noblemen deserve to get their royal buttocks kicked if they think they are better than the masses.

    However, I am stubborn and I don't get any thrill from the cool booms. I like the arch of archery, I dislike the linear nature of firing directly forward. I hate shootout battles because standing in a line being shot at is how the british lost the revolutionary war versus the 13 colonies. I'd like to see some guerrilla warfare.

    I think after a few hours of hearing constant gunfire, I'll be getting a headache. Turning sound off now.
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

  3. #3
    The Dam Dog Senior Member Sheogorath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    1,330

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    I will cede the points:

    1. Objects on the battlefield now have tactical value.
    2. Noblemen deserve to get their royal buttocks kicked if they think they are better than the masses.

    However, I am stubborn and I don't get any thrill from the cool booms. I like the arch of archery, I dislike the linear nature of firing directly forward. I hate shootout battles because standing in a line being shot at is how the british lost the revolutionary war versus the 13 colonies. I'd like to see some guerrilla warfare.

    I think after a few hours of hearing constant gunfire, I'll be getting a headache. Turning sound off now.
    I must admit, the constant booming of cannons DOES drown out the screams of the dying ;)
    Tallyho lads, rape the houses and burn the women! Leave not a single potted plant alive! Full speed ahead and damn the cheesemongers!

  4. #4
    Member Member PBI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,176

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    If your objection to gunpowder warfare is that you dislike it on an aesthetic level then that's fair enough; I would respectfully disagree since I happen to think huge explosions are cool as all whereas if I want to watch big scrum in the middle of a muddy field I will put on the rugby, but it is a matter of personal tastes and discussion isn't going to change any minds.

    The point I would dispute very strongly is the idea that ranged combat is inherently less interesting than melee on a tactical level. I strongly hope the battles in Empire will be the most tactically varied and rich yet, both because of the reasons laid out in my previous post, and because CA at least seem to be placing a big emphasis on the AI this time around. Basically all of the previews so far have been along the lines of either "the naval battles will be really cool" or "the battle AI will be fantastic". Frankly, if the AI is anything like as good as they are making it out to be, then the armies could consist of nothing but twenty of a single generic "Infantry" unit for all factions and they would still be more exciting than the M2TW battles.
    Last edited by PBI; 09-14-2008 at 01:22.

  5. #5
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    25,830

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    Askthepizzaguy continues being a party pooper, being the contrarian that he is.

    Just re-enact everything that could possibly happen in Empire on your M2TW engine. Take two armies of mostly gunpowder units, say, France versus the HRE, and have them fire at one another for a while.

    Use some decent cavalry, and their best cannons.

    There. Now I just saved you a bunch of money!
    #Winstontoostrong
    #Montytoostronger

  6. #6
    Member Member PBI's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,176

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    Sounds pretty much like the Battle of Pavia in the Historical Battles section.

    As a matter of fact, I quite enjoyed it (see CR's Historical Battles thread in the Citadel from a few months back if you're interested). More please!

    Though I restate me earlier assertion: Gunpowder is relatively one-dimensional in M2TW because it a high-end technology designed to upset the balance of power. It is the same reason why the Muslim factions in M2TW are relatively generic and uninteresting; they are merely making cameo appearances in a game primarily about Europe. In ETW gunpowder will take center stage and the combat mechanics will be specifically built around making gunpowder combat interesting. The same way that because Broken Crescent has the Muslim factions as it's main focus, they are far more interesting, individual and well balanced than they are in vanilla.
    Last edited by PBI; 09-14-2008 at 01:37.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    Askthepizzaguy continues being a party pooper, being the contrarian that he is.

    Just re-enact everything that could possibly happen in Empire on your M2TW engine. Take two armies of mostly gunpowder units, say, France versus the HRE, and have them fire at one another for a while.

    Use some decent cavalry, and their best cannons.

    There. Now I just saved you a bunch of money!
    I think you're going to be pretty disappointed in Empire. This is a new era of warfare, where gunpowder is a major factor - not a side show.

    You may "like" medieval warfare better, but I don't think your preference has any impact on the direction the developers will go with Empire. There's a lot of other gamers they're worried about pleasing.

    Do a little research on the time period. It really does not resemble medieval warfare at all. Further, your "arch" of arrows, probably won't be seen too much either.

    Looks like you'll be spending time modding M2TW while we play Empire. For the record, Empire looks like the best total war yet imo.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    I personally feel that the battlefield strategy in Empire will eclipse anything we've seen in Total War to date, including perhaps even MTW:VI.

    Thinking about all of the different types of gunpowder units and types of gunpowder weapons is exciting. Things like reliability, range, reload time - should all add a level of strategic depth to the game that will be different, but possibly even better than what we've come to know.

    Combine this with the fact that melee still plays a role (and an important one at that) as well as cavalry and I think you're looking at the ultimate culmination of battlefield strategy, prior to full blown mobilization and mechanization.

    On top of this, we have real time naval battles now. It really should be good.

    Of course, if you want to avoid gunpowder entirely, Medieval warfare isn't even your flavor- Ancient warfare is.

    Personally, adding the crackle and boom and "punch" of gunpowder armies onto my PC's Total War collection is something I can't wait for. January/February/whenever this game comes out - I anticipate my jaw hitting the floor during the first custom battle.

    All of this said: I have a special interest in medieval warfare and always have. It's difficult for me to actually say "well this is my favorite era, then this era, then this one" because I just have a passion for military history as a whole. In other words - I'll be getting Empire unless CA really drops the ball. Even when I have it installed on my computer, I'll still play M2TW and MTW at times just because I like the era so much. On different days, I have different urges. Sometimes I would want to play out something like the Battle of Waterloo...other days? Agincourt. Just depends on my mood. But I do not specifically dislike any style of warfare. They're all part of an evolutionary process that continues today.

  9. #9
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    11,585
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default Re: Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

    @AoW:

    I mostly agree with AoW. I don't agree, however that this will be the most tactical. It does look like the best, as to what they promise, but I am the same as Martok, ingrained beliefs that there are no tactics besides stand and shoot.
    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    The org will be org until everyone calls it a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    but I joke. Some of my best friends are Vietnamese villages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Anyone who wishes to refer to me as peverlemur is free to do so.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO