Trait: Dislikes Gunpowder

[Askthepizzaguy]

Askthepizzaguy continues being a party pooper, being the contrarian that he is.

Just re-enact everything that could possibly happen in Empire on your M2TW engine. Take two armies of mostly gunpowder units, say, France versus the HRE, and have them fire at one another for a while.

Use some decent cavalry, and their best cannons.

There. Now I just saved you a bunch of money!

[PBI]

Sounds pretty much like the Battle of Pavia in the Historical Battles section.

As a matter of fact, I quite enjoyed it (see CR's Historical Battles thread in the Citadel from a few months back if you're interested). More please!

Though I restate me earlier assertion: Gunpowder is relatively one-dimensional in M2TW because it a high-end technology designed to upset the balance of power. It is the same reason why the Muslim factions in M2TW are relatively generic and uninteresting; they are merely making cameo appearances in a game primarily about Europe. In ETW gunpowder will take center stage and the combat mechanics will be specifically built around making gunpowder combat interesting. The same way that because Broken Crescent has the Muslim factions as it's main focus, they are far more interesting, individual and well balanced than they are in vanilla.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Askthepizzaguy continues being a party pooper, being the contrarian that he is.

Just re-enact everything that could possibly happen in Empire on your M2TW engine. Take two armies of mostly gunpowder units, say, France versus the HRE, and have them fire at one another for a while.

Use some decent cavalry, and their best cannons.

There. Now I just saved you a bunch of money!

I think you're going to be pretty disappointed in Empire. This is a new era of warfare, where gunpowder is a major factor - not a side show.

You may "like" medieval warfare better, but I don't think your preference has any impact on the direction the developers will go with Empire. There's a lot of other gamers they're worried about pleasing.

Do a little research on the time period. It really does not resemble medieval warfare at all. Further, your "arch" of arrows, probably won't be seen too much either.

Looks like you'll be spending time modding M2TW while we play Empire. For the record, Empire looks like the best total war yet imo.

[ArtistofWarfare]

I personally feel that the battlefield strategy in Empire will eclipse anything we've seen in Total War to date, including perhaps even MTW:VI.

Thinking about all of the different types of gunpowder units and types of gunpowder weapons is exciting. Things like reliability, range, reload time - should all add a level of strategic depth to the game that will be different, but possibly even better than what we've come to know.

Combine this with the fact that melee still plays a role (and an important one at that) as well as cavalry and I think you're looking at the ultimate culmination of battlefield strategy, prior to full blown mobilization and mechanization.

On top of this, we have real time naval battles now. It really should be good.

Of course, if you want to avoid gunpowder entirely, Medieval warfare isn't even your flavor- Ancient warfare is.

Personally, adding the crackle and boom and "punch" of gunpowder armies onto my PC's Total War collection is something I can't wait for. January/February/whenever this game comes out - I anticipate my jaw hitting the floor during the first custom battle.

All of this said: I have a special interest in medieval warfare and always have. It's difficult for me to actually say "well this is my favorite era, then this era, then this one" because I just have a passion for military history as a whole. In other words - I'll be getting Empire unless CA really drops the ball. Even when I have it installed on my computer, I'll still play M2TW and MTW at times just because I like the era so much. On different days, I have different urges. Sometimes I would want to play out something like the Battle of Waterloo...other days? Agincourt. Just depends on my mood. But I do not specifically dislike any style of warfare. They're all part of an evolutionary process that continues today.

[pevergreen]

@AoW:

I mostly agree with AoW. I don't agree, however that this will be the most tactical. It does look like the best, as to what they promise, but I am the same as Martok, ingrained beliefs that there are no tactics besides stand and shoot.

[ArtistofWarfare]

@AoW:

I mostly agree with AoW. I don't agree, however that this will be the most tactical. It does look like the best, as to what they promise, but I am the same as Martok, ingrained beliefs that there are no tactics besides stand and shoot.

Hey, I fully understand your reservations...as well as Martok's. They're well founded. That said, you can certainly see the potential, as you've indicated.

I'm not the developer. I have no idea what they're really going to give us in the end. But you've seen my previous thoughts/ideas and if they're executed in game as they should be, even the skeptics should be pleasantly surprised.

Again: The potential is certainly there. We'll see where things go from here. In the meantime, it's an outstanding discussion to be having as we await the release.

edit: Look at Waterloo. Look at the various stages of that battle. The strategic level is...intense to say the least. Further, I think this battle clearly demonstrates the complexity of a battle with melee/artillery/gunpowder/hybrid units all working in a concerted effort. It's not just about rock/paper/scissor anymore - it's about timing and quick decision making.

[pevergreen]

Can you give a link for that AoW? I'm afraid I know nothing of this period of time. I know there was a battle at Waterloo, but not much beyond that. (not wikipedia please)

[ArtistofWarfare]

Can you give a link for that AoW? I'm afraid I know nothing of this period of time. I know there was a battle at Waterloo, but not much beyond that. (not wikipedia please)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If you want to talk off topic, please PM me. I respect Martok, and how he moderates, lets not make him do any work.

Waterloo: This is what I could come up with quickly - http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british...erloo_01.shtml

It's one of the most important battles in history. You would definitely find the facts surrounding it as well as the tactics used within it, beyond interesting.