The Islam Thread...

[AlexanderSextus]

Okay... I am opening this thread to start a discussion on Islam in the hopes that through INTELLIGENT conversation, maybe some of us can dispel some of the myths or misconceptions some of us may have about it.

And to members of the forum who are muslims, Yes, we are going to be critical of your Religion, but you have every right to be critical of ours, fairness is key. No insulting, and please, try to leave dogma out of it.
If you are going to make an argument against Islam or if you are a Muslim and you make an argument against Christianity or Buddhism or what have you, base it on LOGIC, and REASONING, and not Theology.

Before I ask the first Question (thats what this is about really, asking Questions.) I would like to leave a quote i read on a website.

"Islam does not necessarily represent the Muslims you know, and the Muslims you know do not necessarily represent Islam."


1. I have read things from islam that kind of disturbed me, be it from the Qur'an, or the Hadiths, etc...

Verses about killing "unbelievers" and verses about Christians and Jews, etc. that tell Muslims to make war against them, and i have also read verses that say that Jews and Christians are "people of the Book(The Bible, obviously)" and are to be respected.

My question here, is, Which one is it??? Are they friends or are they enemies? It would seem to be the latter judging by the conduct in the Middle East, as of late, but some would argue that they are just a small group of Muslims. Clarification is greatly appreciated on my part.

2. In Islam, God is completely Transcendent, and therefore, can behave however He wants. (this is technically an assumption...from what i've gathered. Correct me if i am wrong, Please.)

So, does this mean that if God says in the Qur'an for you to kill someone, It's okay? For Example, in Contrast, Christians have a doctrine called Logos, which, from what i can remember, basically means that if something is contrary to human moral behavior, like killing someone, it is contrary to the nature of god. Does this also apply to Islam?

I have more Questions but i will ask them later as i want to let other people post.

KEEP IT CIVIL, PEOPLE!!!!!!

[Strike For The South]

The poor and uneducated and destitute have always been brought to bidding by their leaders. Last centuries vehicle was imperialism this century its religion. Hummmmm drum. I feel no need to inflate islam.

[Csargo]

The poor and uneducated and destitute have always been brought to bidding by their leaders. Last centuries vehicle was imperialism this century its religion. Hummmmm drum. I feel no need to inflate islam.

[AlexanderSextus]

The poor and uneducated and destitute have always been brought to bidding by their leaders. Last centuries vehicle was imperialism this century its religion. Hummmmm drum. I feel no need to inflate islam.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "inflate" but i'm just gonna put it on the record that i'm not apologetic towards islam, after all, stacks of dead bodies are created because of it, either directly or indirectly, its just that I have Muslim friends and it troubles me to think, you know, the book they read, technically,(Maybe not even Technically???) is telling them to kill me, and yet, i then think, "but these are my friends, and i really dont think they would do that", and that seems like a very rational thing to think. Furthermore, sometimes i think, that maybe i'm misinterpreting things and maybe it's NOT actually telling them to kill me. Maybe i just think too much.

I believe it says "when you meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when you have caused a bloodbath among them, bind a bond firmly upon them" Surah 47, Verse 4.

How could i be misinterpreting that?? Still, i cant see my friends following something so hateful.

so see thats one of the reasons i opened this thread; to get answers, and also to discuss some of the "issues" surrounding it. Also, if there are any Muslims here on the ORG, i kinda want to ask you, how can you follow a book that says such horrible stuff?

look, like i said, i'm trying to use REASONING here. I'm not trying to be prejudice...i'm doing the best i can to draw conclusions by pulling straight out of the Qur'an and if i'm taking things out of context, let me know.

[CountArach]

No thread with this title can end well. My bet - closed on the 7th page.

[Hax]

1. I have read things from islam that kind of disturbed me, be it from the Qur'an, or the Hadiths, etc...

Verses about killing "unbelievers" and verses about Christians and Jews, etc. that tell Muslims to make war against them, and i have also read verses that say that Jews and Christians are "people of the Book(The Bible, obviously)" and are to be respected.

Have you even read the Qu'ran itself? When they speak about war, it is only in self-defense and in defense of the weaker, but should your enemy surrender, you have to accept it and look upon him as your brother, etc, etc.

And about your friends, they haven't killed you, right? Tell me now, when was the last time an atheist was murdered by vengeful Christians? The Bible is way more violent and unforgiving than the Qu'ran, at some points.

EDIT: The full verse is: "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make [them] prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom [themselves] until the war terminates.

[rory_20_uk]

What I found odd about Islam was that although the Koran is the first, was dictated straight from God, the later pronouncements take precident - and are as a rule far more vitriolic.

If you want to bash Christianity (and I think that doing that is in many ways far easier) feel free to start another thread. Bult to speak in relatavism on which religion slaughtered the most people isn't that helpful; I would also add that most religious texts let you choose a verse to suit almost any decision.

Islam in the early years was a militaristic religion that swept over large parts of the world, and so did not need much in the way of compromise with the locals as theirs was the dominant religion.

[JR-]

in my 'learned' opinion i simply believe that Islam needs about 500 years to mature and chill-out. the bible is full of violent and contradictory statements too from what i am led to believe, the difference is that post-reformation it has been ok for people to shrug our shoulders and say; "who cares".

accepting the koran as the unaltered words of god is a problem that islam will eventually have to get over, and the sooner this point is reached the better. the new muslim marriage contract in the UK is a step in the right direction, as it implies a right to 'interpret' that which has heretofore been immutable.

[HoreTore]

I believe it says "when you meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when you have caused a bloodbath among them, bind a bond firmly upon them" Surah 47, Verse 4.

The Quran being an extension of the Bible, this should hardly be surprising

Does executing the firstborn of an entire nation sound like a just punishment for the wrongs of one man to you? Or how about execution for being gay?

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Or some nice war in Deuteronomy?

2:33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people.

2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

No, I'm not arguing that christianity is evil. I'm arguing that every religion has things like this. Christianity has it, Judaism has it, and Islam has it. The fanatics of all the faiths usually focus on things like this.

However, there are plenty of positive things in all the three religions too, and the sane people focus on that. Like charity work, respect for other people, etc etc.

Religion has always been, and will always be, based on how you interpret it. Some interpret god as a raving killer, others interpret him as kind, just, etc.

[rory_20_uk]

Society has charity. Society has respect. Damnit, primates or even dogs have respect! These things are inherent to all animals based in packs / groups. Religion doesn't add these things, it merely adds them to the sanctified slaughter of others.

If the best we can say about religion is that is mentions the obvious and we'd best steer clear of the masses of other stuff that somehow got in there it's like saying Beijing was a peaceful place for the Games and let's not focus on any other political matters...

[PBI]

Fun as it certainly is to lay into religion, I suspect in fact its role in affecting how people behave is much overrated.

I am starting to suspect that much of the way people behave is unaffected by their beliefs. Of the many good-natured, fun-loving, generous and charitable religious people I know I suspect that they would continue to be that way if they were atheists. Similarly, I suspect that angry, easily-led malcontents who are quick to decide violence is the answer to their problems would find an excuse to kill people with or without religion. As rory says, you can find in religious texts justification for you to live your life pretty much however you please.

I suspect it is very unusual for religion to actually lead people to act contrary to their nature.

the new muslim marriage contract in the UK is a step in the right direction, as it implies a right to 'interpret' that which has heretofore been immutable.

I must have missed that story, could you provide a link?

[JR-]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/urmeekh...european_islam

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...en-rights.html

[HoreTore]

Society has charity. Society has respect. Damnit, primates or even dogs have respect! These things are inherent to all animals based in packs / groups. Religion doesn't add these things, it merely adds them to the sanctified slaughter of others.

Of course, but that's another story

[yesdachi]

Not every Christian is necessarily a “good” Christian, following the bible to the letter and neither is every Muslim a “good” Muslim following the Qur’an to the letter. So even if the religions, from a technical aspect, contradict one another I still think the average Joe Muslim can get along with the average Joe Christian. Hardcore religious nutters on either side are going to throw hate but the mainstream semi-religious people ought to get along just fine with limited interaction.

[Viking]

Religion equals interpretation. EOD.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

There is nothing wrong with your average Muslim. There is something wrong with the political correctness sweeping Europe.

[AlexanderSextus]

Have you even read the Qu'ran itself? When they speak about war, it is only in self-defense and in defense of the weaker, but should your enemy surrender, you have to accept it and look upon him as your brother, etc, etc.

And about your friends, they haven't killed you, right? Tell me now, when was the last time an atheist was murdered by vengeful Christians? The Bible is way more violent and unforgiving than the Qu'ran, at some points.

EDIT: The full verse is: "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make [them] prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom [themselves] until the war terminates.

I havent really read it from beginning to end, i just have looked at it a little and some of it was a little disturbing...

but it seems you know about it more than me. So... thanks, Hax! heres a balloon!


oh, and yeah, i'm not defending the bible either. I'm Agnostic, guys.

[Hax]

No problem. My father is a muslim himself, and I don't see him killing anybody for having a different religion. Even me, with my Pantheïstic views with an unhealthy attraction to trees isn't in lethal danger.

[Devastatin Dave]

No thread with this title can end well. My bet - closed on the 7th page.

Nah, I'm not going to participate!!! All hail Xenu!!!

[AlexanderSextus]

Another thing i'm a little worried about is how Islam is against freedom and liberty and basically is contradictory to the principles my country(and others, maybe a little bit less) was founded upon.

Sharia law, from what i know about it (not much) is pretty damn authoritarian. I'm not a big fan of authoritarian.

[Goofball]

Society has charity. Society has respect. Damnit, primates or even dogs have respect! These things are inherent to all animals based in packs / groups. Religion doesn't add these things, it merely adds them to the sanctified slaughter of others.

If the best we can say about religion is that is mentions the obvious and we'd best steer clear of the masses of other stuff that somehow got in there it's like saying Beijing was a peaceful place for the Games and let's not focus on any other political matters...

Amen, brutha!

Somebody gimme Hallelujah!

[AlexanderSextus]

No problem. My father is a muslim himself, and I don't see him killing anybody for having a different religion. Even me, with my Pantheïstic views with an unhealthy attraction to trees isn't in lethal danger.

Well, i didnt actually think i was gonna get blown up one day... i just was a little unnerved when i read the parts that some muslims use as justification for blowing stuff up.

So, your dad never even says stuff about other religions? My friend Ibrahim (no not the dude on the ORG, another Ibrahim) likes to bash Christianity a lot, and i try to play Devils advocate with him, For example, He likes to talk about how Allah cannot reproduce and create a son, he quotes the "Allah does not beget nor is he begotten" verse all the time, and one time i said "The 'Only Begotten Son' verse in the bible is a mistranslation"... He said that if that is true, then Muslims have one less reason to be angry towards christians.

I have another one i'm gonna throw at him next time that goes something like this:

"Do you believe that God is all-powerful and can do anything he wants?"

Chances are good he's gonna say "Yeah, Sure."

"So why couldn't he assume a human form and come down to the earth?"

I'm reallly wondering how he's gonna respond to that one.

[JR-]

i said "The 'Only Begotten Son' verse in the bible is a mistranslation"... He said that if that is true, then Muslims have one less reason to be angry towards christians.

sounds like a bit of a muppet if he thinks a theological difference is a legitimate reason to be angry............

[Viking]

Somebody gimme Hallelujah!

Hallelujah!



Just thought I should throw in the following quote from the OP to show the importance of interpretation:

So, does this mean that if God says in the Qur'an for you to kill someone, It's okay? For Example, in Contrast, Christians have a doctrine called Logos, which, from what i can remember, basically means that if something is contrary to human moral behavior, like killing someone, it is contrary to the nature of god. Does this also apply to Islam?

Yet this does not prevent Christians from being for death penalty. Let's also take the following passage from the New Testament:

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

—Luke 6:27-31. NIV


which apparently can just be interpreted into non-existence.

[AlexanderSextus]

sounds like a bit of a muppet if he thinks a theological difference is a legitimate reason to be angry............

He's not necessarily angry, hes just saying that a lot of other muslims are.

[JR-]

He's not necessarily angry, hes just saying that a lot of other muslims are.

ah, i understand.

then 'they' would be muppets if that is really what gets there goat up.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well the writings in the Old Testament which encouraged the killing of sinners were from a different covenenant between God and the people. Throughout the Bible seven covenants are made IIRC, and it is quite clear in the later ones that while God's views on sin do not change, he does tell us to treat sinners differently. The original covenants were made with Israel when it was a theocracy, however since people kept on breaking the covenants we've got to where we are now. So true Christians today focus much more on forgiveness than killing, because it's what the Bible tells us to do.

[Paradox]

I'm a Muslim. [moderator's Irony alert] I was raised in a dark room and was taught to kill people like you, also, I'm an experianced suicide bomber and the only words that come through my mind are Jihad and Allah.[/irony] ~Kukri

Ramadan is four days away, so I don't feel like arguing. Believe what you want about Islam, I read the Qur'an every Ramadan and it does not promote violence and bloodshed.

Don't mean to insult y'all but come on, I'm sick of seeing hateful comments towards my religion every time I read through my favorite section of the forum. You can express your thoughts through it, sure, but the subject's getting old.

[Hax]

Yes exactly, Fahad. The thing is, people are really touchy about Islam nowadays, as humans always look for something to blame for bad stuff.

Best of wishes for the Ramadan.

========

@AlexanderSextus: Sure, I like to bash Christianity as well. As Judaism. As Islam. I treat all monotheistic equally in light of my skeptical reactions to some stuff. That doesn't mean that I think about killing Christians all the time. Nor Jews or Muslims for that part.

[Paradox]

Best of wishes for the Ramadan.

Thanks, Hax.