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Just wondering , what with all this go across the border and attack the terrorist safe havens stuff in a nominally friendly country , does it remind anyone of another conflict America couldn't win ?
jesus and hippies? they both needed to cut their hair and get a job.
Originally Posted by Tribesman:
Just wondering , what with all this go across the border and attack the terrorist safe havens stuff in a nominally friendly country , does it remind anyone of another conflict America couldn't win ?
nvmJust wondering , what with all this go across the border and attack the terrorist safe havens stuff in a nominally friendly country , does it remind anyone of another conflict America couldn't win ?
Originally Posted by Tribesman:
Just wondering , what with all this go across the border and attack the terrorist safe havens stuff in a nominally friendly country , does it remind anyone of another conflict America couldn't win ?
I was thinking Laos during the American operations in Vietnam, but every situation has unique nooks and crannies. What didn't work for one may work for another. Just wondering , what with all this go across the border and attack the terrorist safe havens stuff in a nominally friendly country , does it remind anyone of another conflict America couldn't win ?
Please don't say "Madness is doing the same thing and expecting different results". It is never the same thing and you should always expect different results.
And if "define conservative in Jesus' sense" we've practically solved the problem, right? What the heck Jesus has got to do with US crossing border into Pakistan? 
You guys are thinking too much about morality when you should be thinking about reality. It doesn't matter much if incursion is morally justified if the goal is catching terrorists - what matter is what Pakistanis are going to do.
They're not going to be happy about it and at one point they may decide to test those weapons on their maker. And this is not Iraq or Afghanistan, this is a country that has nuclear weapons, 800,000 sq km territory, 200 million people living in it and 7th largest army in the world. Care should be taken when dealing with such a nation, especially considering that militancy is high after what's been happening in the recent past. US troops rolling across the border would make perfect target to those elements within the country that are looking for one.
Better to play whack-a-mole with a few more terrorists than to try to take head on Pakistani army. Intensify border patrols and use carrot and stick system to get Pakistan to close those camps. It takes time but it is safest and offers the only sustainable solution. Has anyone thought what would happen if let's say US troops get in, destroy all terrorist camps and get out? No? New ones would be made.
So the strategy: get in, destroy, get out has two possible outcomes:
Outcome 1: Pakistanis don't react, in which case camps are reopened very soon after US soldiers leave - it doesn't change anything.
Outcome 2: Pakistan reacts and there is war and many more US soldiers die. And even if America manages to acquire control of Pakistan you get Iraq and Afghanistan times 100 and many more US soldiers die.
To sum up - incursions into Pakistan won't solve anything, won't reduce the risks of US soldiers getting killed (in the best of the best case it might, but only for a short time) and it may lead US army which is already very stretched out into bigger conflicts with the 7th largest military in the world. What those incursions can do, and likely will, is piss of Pakistan, which is in very delicate situation and should be treated very carefully...
You guys are thinking too much about morality when you should be thinking about reality. It doesn't matter much if incursion is morally justified if the goal is catching terrorists - what matter is what Pakistanis are going to do.
They're not going to be happy about it and at one point they may decide to test those weapons on their maker. And this is not Iraq or Afghanistan, this is a country that has nuclear weapons, 800,000 sq km territory, 200 million people living in it and 7th largest army in the world. Care should be taken when dealing with such a nation, especially considering that militancy is high after what's been happening in the recent past. US troops rolling across the border would make perfect target to those elements within the country that are looking for one.
Better to play whack-a-mole with a few more terrorists than to try to take head on Pakistani army. Intensify border patrols and use carrot and stick system to get Pakistan to close those camps. It takes time but it is safest and offers the only sustainable solution. Has anyone thought what would happen if let's say US troops get in, destroy all terrorist camps and get out? No? New ones would be made.
So the strategy: get in, destroy, get out has two possible outcomes:
Outcome 1: Pakistanis don't react, in which case camps are reopened very soon after US soldiers leave - it doesn't change anything.
Outcome 2: Pakistan reacts and there is war and many more US soldiers die. And even if America manages to acquire control of Pakistan you get Iraq and Afghanistan times 100 and many more US soldiers die.
To sum up - incursions into Pakistan won't solve anything, won't reduce the risks of US soldiers getting killed (in the best of the best case it might, but only for a short time) and it may lead US army which is already very stretched out into bigger conflicts with the 7th largest military in the world. What those incursions can do, and likely will, is piss of Pakistan, which is in very delicate situation and should be treated very carefully...
We all know what you think about territorial integrity...
I favor a very cautious approach with respect to borders - particularly of allies, particularly of allies whose support is absolutely necessary to the pursuance of major strategic aims.
However - the reluctance of Pakistan to solve the problem and it's importance to the overall stability of the project in Afghanistan causes a vacuum that needs to be filled by action. It is arguable as to how this will get done.
I favor a very cautious approach with respect to borders - particularly of allies, particularly of allies whose support is absolutely necessary to the pursuance of major strategic aims.
However - the reluctance of Pakistan to solve the problem and it's importance to the overall stability of the project in Afghanistan causes a vacuum that needs to be filled by action. It is arguable as to how this will get done.
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff:
C'mon. He wasn't pulling a Herod Antipas, there is no material evidence that he used drugs. Without the sex and drugs he wouldn't have been much of a hippie at all. He seemed to have been even more intense in many parts of his religious observance than the traditionalists; if your eye, hand, foot offends you with sin cut/pluck them off/out.
True, but he also disregarded the letter in other parts, such as not working on the Sabbath, issues about dealing with gentiles, Samaritans, tax collectors etc... Point is, Jesus wasn't really conservative or liberal. But he WAS a hippy, no doubt. C'mon. He wasn't pulling a Herod Antipas, there is no material evidence that he used drugs. Without the sex and drugs he wouldn't have been much of a hippie at all. He seemed to have been even more intense in many parts of his religious observance than the traditionalists; if your eye, hand, foot offends you with sin cut/pluck them off/out.
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff:
Also - we don't know what happened after our second cheek was struck. "If a man strikes you, turn the other cheek" could have been followed by "if they strike the other cheek, drop the mother-effing hammer".
Also - we don't know what happened after our second cheek was struck. "If a man strikes you, turn the other cheek" could have been followed by "if they strike the other cheek, drop the mother-effing hammer".
Originally Posted by :
However - the reluctance of Pakistan to solve the problem
Reluctance ? possibly to a certain extent , though more probably its through the realisation that they like everyone else who tried cannot solve the problem ...and I don't think the US has the faintest idea how to solve the problem of the tribal belt either .However - the reluctance of Pakistan to solve the problem
http://govexec.com/story_page.cfm?ar...dcn=todaysnews
This is a pretty good article I recently read. It should combat a lot of the ignorance thrown around about teh eval Bushie giving up on Afghanistan. Truth is, no one is more committed to the fight.
The article is a bit long but a good read. Seems the bad guys are starting to give up on Iraq and head to Afghanistan. Right behind them are hopefully the first of many reinforcements, from the U.S.
It seems that if anyone has given up on Afghanistan, it is Afghanistan itself. Also the key to winning there, is to strike insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistan.
This is a pretty good article I recently read. It should combat a lot of the ignorance thrown around about teh eval Bushie giving up on Afghanistan. Truth is, no one is more committed to the fight.
The article is a bit long but a good read. Seems the bad guys are starting to give up on Iraq and head to Afghanistan. Right behind them are hopefully the first of many reinforcements, from the U.S.
It seems that if anyone has given up on Afghanistan, it is Afghanistan itself. Also the key to winning there, is to strike insurgent sanctuaries in Pakistan.
Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars:
Jesus and Mandela attacked civilian targets of those who opposed them? That's news to me.
Mandela did not. Yet he was labeled terrorist, and sent to prison cause of it. Much like many of the "terrorist" in Guantanamo have not "fought" or "attacked civilian targets", but have argued against the US, have had texts supporting freedom fights, and so on... Jesus and Mandela attacked civilian targets of those who opposed them? That's news to me.
Or, are you actually saying that everyone in Guantanamo has attacked civilian targets??
Jesus however did...
Matthew 21:12-16
"And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves."
Isn't that attacking a civilian target of the Romans?
There has been a case study of Jesus as the first terrorist... Written by Björn Kumm, I am unsure if it is translated to english or not.
Dude, you need to stay! I like you. 
Oh, another question: Why didn't you put "freedom fights" in quotes? Did you mean to say freedom fries?
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Mandela did not. Yet he was labeled terrorist, and sent to prison cause of it. Much like many of the "terrorist" in Guantanamo have not "fought" or "attacked civilian targets", but have argued against the US, have had texts supporting freedom fights, and so on...
Or, are you actually saying that everyone in Guantanamo has attacked civilian targets??
Reeealy? How many people at Gitmo are labeled "terrorists?" How do you know many of those labeled "terrorists" haven't fought, attacked (or planned to attack) civilian targets? Are you saying that people have been imprisoned there for reading books? You must be a very well informed chap. Mandela did not. Yet he was labeled terrorist, and sent to prison cause of it. Much like many of the "terrorist" in Guantanamo have not "fought" or "attacked civilian targets", but have argued against the US, have had texts supporting freedom fights, and so on...
Or, are you actually saying that everyone in Guantanamo has attacked civilian targets??
Oh, another question: Why didn't you put "freedom fights" in quotes? Did you mean to say freedom fries?
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Mandela did not. Yet he was labeled terrorist, and sent to prison cause of it. Much like many of the "terrorist" in Guantanamo have not "fought" or "attacked civilian targets", but have argued against the US, have had texts supporting freedom fights, and so on...
Or, are you actually saying that everyone in Guantanamo has attacked civilian targets??
Jesus however did...
Matthew 21:12-16
"And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves."
Isn't that attacking a civilian target of the Romans?
There has been a case study of Jesus as the first terrorist... Written by Björn Kumm, I am unsure if it is translated to english or not.
Oh you got me - a single outburst in which a table is thrown upside down is terrorism if I've ever seen it.Mandela did not. Yet he was labeled terrorist, and sent to prison cause of it. Much like many of the "terrorist" in Guantanamo have not "fought" or "attacked civilian targets", but have argued against the US, have had texts supporting freedom fights, and so on...
Or, are you actually saying that everyone in Guantanamo has attacked civilian targets??
Jesus however did...
Matthew 21:12-16
"And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves."
Isn't that attacking a civilian target of the Romans?
There has been a case study of Jesus as the first terrorist... Written by Björn Kumm, I am unsure if it is translated to english or not.
Start a new thread.
http://www.jesuswasaterrorist.net/Ap...arene_prt1.htm
Apparently divine intervention took down the site!
Apparently divine intervention took down the site!
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff:
Oh you got me - a single outburst in which a table is thrown upside down is terrorism if I've ever seen it.
I imagine people get sent to Guantanamo for similar things. Y'know, single outburst, throwing things.Oh you got me - a single outburst in which a table is thrown upside down is terrorism if I've ever seen it.
Its off-topic in regards to cross border invasion and nation sovereignity though.
I think Pakistan has every right to stop the US from attacking its citizens. I mean Mexico isn't sending soldiers to the US to hunt down some escaped aliens now are they? (Of course they couldn't care less, but just for sake of argument
)Originally Posted by :
Oh you got me - a single outburst in which a table is thrown upside down is terrorism if I've ever seen it.
Actually Kadagar is right , that is an example of using force to disrupt the economy of the empire , no different from calling in a bomb threat to wall street to disturb their trading , well it could be worse as with Jesus confrontation actual violence and damage to property occured where with a bomb threat its just a threat of violence and damage .Oh you got me - a single outburst in which a table is thrown upside down is terrorism if I've ever seen it.
Does the transport of goods and people to Afghanistan go through Pakistan?
Either way, killing people on the territory of someone who's supposed to be an ally you depend heavily upon without their consent is really just a messed up idea.
Either way, killing people on the territory of someone who's supposed to be an ally you depend heavily upon without their consent is really just a messed up idea.
Originally Posted by Strike For The South:
This, ladies and gentleman, is a breakthrough in geopolitical thought! For to many years we have been shackled with problems of the world when the answer has been staring us in the face the whole time. Nuclear weapons the solution to all your petty disagreements.
Sith have you considered running for public office? Your exactly what this country needs a headstrong leader who follows his gut that'll show those people over there. Who are they all high and mighty with there oil walking around in there damn pajamas all day. The Heathens.
This, ladies and gentleman, is a breakthrough in geopolitical thought! For to many years we have been shackled with problems of the world when the answer has been staring us in the face the whole time. Nuclear weapons the solution to all your petty disagreements.
Sith have you considered running for public office? Your exactly what this country needs a headstrong leader who follows his gut that'll show those people over there. Who are they all high and mighty with there oil walking around in there damn pajamas all day. The Heathens.
Yes I have! Warman8 and Mr.Peanut for US Preisdent in 2008!
Originally Posted by :
I will point americans who don't get why Europeans dislike them to this thread.
As a sidenote, I have had family dying in Afghanistan. NO I am not american, I am Swedish, so was the trooper.
You see, USA long ago gave up on that war, and left other countries to do their dirty job of cleaning up.
So, contrary to, well, 90% of the other posters in this therad, I am up to date with what happens there...
And no, NUKES is not the solution.
I do think the world would be a better place if someone nuked USA, would get some sence of vulnerability back, and, would make them understand what nukes does to people, for generations.
*sigh*
I got very sad when I read this thread.
Also, it creeps me out that the ONLY country ever to have used such a malign weapon as nukes, is the one claiming the morale highground, while their teenage (I hope you are teenage) citizens are screaming for more nukes...
Scary...
I will point americans who don't get why Europeans dislike them to this thread.
As a sidenote, I have had family dying in Afghanistan. NO I am not american, I am Swedish, so was the trooper.
You see, USA long ago gave up on that war, and left other countries to do their dirty job of cleaning up.
So, contrary to, well, 90% of the other posters in this therad, I am up to date with what happens there...
And no, NUKES is not the solution.
I do think the world would be a better place if someone nuked USA, would get some sence of vulnerability back, and, would make them understand what nukes does to people, for generations.
*sigh*
I got very sad when I read this thread.
Also, it creeps me out that the ONLY country ever to have used such a malign weapon as nukes, is the one claiming the morale highground, while their teenage (I hope you are teenage) citizens are screaming for more nukes...
Scary...
How has the US given up on Afghanistan? And Besides, I don't think Europe should talk since they can't take care of Russia (go figure)....
Your Sweds Sure are funny! Remeber How bad these people beat you
:https://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?...hussar8nz2.jpg
( Dad side of the family is Polish)
Maybe We should Nuke Sweden Instead? They seem to not be able losing to Poland in the 1600's quite a bit....
Yes, I am 16, but I still have a brain. How well you thinking I don't know chief, but I'm thinking quite clear. If you just nuke the Middle East....
Oh Wait, I'm just a dumb American Kid that needs to be nuke, forget it
Originally Posted by Tribesman:
Actually Kadagar is right , that is an example of using force to disrupt the economy of the empire , no different from calling in a bomb threat to wall street to disturb their trading , well it could be worse as with Jesus confrontation actual violence and damage to property occured where with a bomb threat its just a threat of violence and damage .
Actually Kadagar is right , that is an example of using force to disrupt the economy of the empire , no different from calling in a bomb threat to wall street to disturb their trading , well it could be worse as with Jesus confrontation actual violence and damage to property occured where with a bomb threat its just a threat of violence and damage .
No wonder you hate the right - in your opinion a kid throwing a single rock at a U.S. tank is a terrorist. Everyone is two steps away from being shipped off to guantanamo.
Originally Posted by |Sith|3|AntiWarmanCake88 Toyosada88:
Oh Wait, I'm just a dumb American Kid that needs to be nuke, forget it
Don’t worry, Kadager wont nuke you he just won’t feel bad if someone else nukes you. Oh Wait, I'm just a dumb American Kid that needs to be nuke, forget it
Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff:
No wonder you hate the right - in your opinion a kid throwing a single rock at a U.S. tank is a terrorist. Everyone is two steps away from being shipped off to guantanamo.
Well... to be quite honest, you dont even need to throw a rock to be shipped to Guantanamo...No wonder you hate the right - in your opinion a kid throwing a single rock at a U.S. tank is a terrorist. Everyone is two steps away from being shipped off to guantanamo.
Have you heard the story of the swedish guy? He was released after 3 years in Guantanamo...
He never even got to know what he was accused of.
He had a long beard and islamic litterature though.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Well... to be quite honest, you dont even need to throw a rock to be shipped to Guantanamo...
Have you heard the story of the swedish guy? He was released after 3 years in Guantanamo...
He never even got to know what he was accused of.
He had a long beard and islamic litterature though.
Yea, that one guy, with the thing, that did the other thing, who was a, you know...Well... to be quite honest, you dont even need to throw a rock to be shipped to Guantanamo...
Have you heard the story of the swedish guy? He was released after 3 years in Guantanamo...
He never even got to know what he was accused of.
He had a long beard and islamic litterature though.
http://www.bokus.com/b/9789173430869.html
only in swedish though.
I am sure some other swedes can verify this story in true.
only in swedish though.
I am sure some other swedes can verify this story in true.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Well... to be quite honest, you dont even need to throw a rock to be shipped to Guantanamo...
Have you heard the story of the swedish guy? He was released after 3 years in Guantanamo...
He never even got to know what he was accused of.
He had a long beard and islamic litterature though.
Well... to be quite honest, you dont even need to throw a rock to be shipped to Guantanamo...
Have you heard the story of the swedish guy? He was released after 3 years in Guantanamo...
He never even got to know what he was accused of.
He had a long beard and islamic litterature though.
One Less Potental Radical Muslim out there,right?
Originally Posted by |Sith|3|AntiWarmanCake88 Toyosada88:
One Less Potental Radical Muslim out there,right?
He was more like a the average Joe.... Just at the wrong place at the wrong time.One Less Potental Radical Muslim out there,right?
Otherwise they would not have let him go.
However, spending 2,5 years in prison, with torture and stuff, not even knowing what you are accused of... There is only ONE western country that can happen in... USA.
Are you proud?
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
He was more like a the average Joe.... Just at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Otherwise they would not have let him go.
However, spending 2,5 years in prison, with torture and stuff, not even knowing what you are accused of... There is only ONE western country that can happen in... USA.
Are you proud?
He was more like a the average Joe.... Just at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Otherwise they would not have let him go.
However, spending 2,5 years in prison, with torture and stuff, not even knowing what you are accused of... There is only ONE western country that can happen in... USA.
Are you proud?
Was he Muslim? If so, well then.... Should have been more careful!
Originally Posted by :
One Less Potental Radical Muslim out there,right?
Wrong , its stuff like that which makes lots of real radical muslims .One Less Potental Radical Muslim out there,right?
Originally Posted by :
in your opinion a kid throwing a single rock at a U.S. tank is a terrorist.
in your opinion a kid throwing a single rock at a U.S. tank is a terrorist.
Thats a military tartget isn't it , I thought the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter was that the former only attacked civilian targets 
Originally Posted by :
How has the US given up on Afghanistan?
Where have you been this century ? They gave up when they didn't fully exploit the very narrow window of opertunity , now that window has closed they are just pissing in the wind with no purpose .How has the US given up on Afghanistan?
Again.... and americans wonder why they are hated.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Again.... and americans wonder why they are hated.
If you hate Americans, you're blind. Again.... and americans wonder why they are hated.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Again.... and americans wonder why they are hated.
Why? Because we lash out at crazy people who believe that a nuclear attack against America would make the world a better place?Again.... and americans wonder why they are hated.
Originally Posted by Tribesman:
Wrong , its stuff like that which makes lots of real radical muslims .
Thats a military tartget isn't it , I thought the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter was that the former only attacked civilian targets
Where have you been this century ? They gave up when they didn't fully exploit the very narrow window of opertunity , now that window has closed they are just pissing in the wind with no purpose .
Wrong , its stuff like that which makes lots of real radical muslims .
Thats a military tartget isn't it , I thought the difference between a terrorist and a freedom fighter was that the former only attacked civilian targets Where have you been this century ? They gave up when they didn't fully exploit the very narrow window of opertunity , now that window has closed they are just pissing in the wind with no purpose .
Ah Tribes, I been waiting for you to quote some of my posts
.No, Where have you been? Last time I checked, we been doing most of the work, since Europe can't do anything....
Also, Muslims turn radical because of their comrades, not us.
Originally Posted by :
Again.... and americans wonder why they are hated.
Again.... and americans wonder why they are hated.
By people like you who thinks America should be nuked.... yea, you make sense
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