Romani Campaign advice - should I stay or should I go?

[AzJeff]

Hi all,
I have been playing a Romani campaign and it is now about 224 BC.
Not doing too bad (I think!) - Rome controls all of Italy, Sardinia/Corsica/Sicily, Dalmatia, Albania, Pelle, most of Gaul (Aedui have been destroyed), and the most of the Carthaginian North Africa - from Ippio (Algeria) in the west to Lepki in East (Libya).
Currently at war with Carthage, Sweboz, and Eperos. Arverni have about 3 provinces in Gaul.
Sweboz are the big threat in NW/Central Europe, Eperos is on the ropes, Carthage has been crippled due to the loss of Kart-Hadast and it's other core provinces.

My quandary is this: I have run into the Type4 Government 'Interloper bug' : I can't install Type4 governments without getting a general who eventually acquires the 'Interloper' trait.
I figured I would just keep playing and not build any IV's - make everything III or II.

But I'm wondering is this do-able?
Will I be able to have a sustainable empire (90+ provinces) without using Client states?
Already I am running out of FMs to govern cities - out of the 32 provinces I control, 7 or 8 have no governor.

What should I do?

Keep playing or install the fixes for Client states and re-start?

Thanks!

- J

[Chris_]

You should be ok with type 3 - when your province to family member ratio becomes too high, RTW will give you more adoption/man of the hour opportunities. Also, you should be getting to that time of the game where your family tree starts to get pretty big - you should get a lot of generals coming of age sooner or later.

[Grriffon]

I also think you should be fine. I usually only use level 4 governments if I am leading one large army on a path of destruction and need a quick fix for public order. When I have the money and resources, as it sounds like you have, you can build up settlements that will function just fine with level 3's and no governor. Although, as previously mentioned, increasing territories will eventually increase the number of FM's you have.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Wait, the interloper trait is not a bug, is it? It is simply what happens when you put a family member in a city with type IV government. Do your Amicus Popilus Romani (Client State generals) get the Interloper trait too? Also, what you might have noticed is that not all of your settlements will, should or need to have governors in them.

I have a so-called "government program" in my Romani campaign where I send out a general who has pretty much no influence/managment/command but is Sharp/Charismatic/Optimistic off to a small or large city with a school/academy to study for three years and then off to war. Other times, when one of the generals from my eight armies(each with two fighting legions and one extra replacement legion) around the world retires, I send a general straight to war without any schooling. After say, 10-20 years of campaigning they get the maximum influence and management and about 5-9 command stars. That is when I send them to a sizable city where they can use their management and influence to the greatest effect.

Why are you saying it is not doable to not use type IV governments? I personally do not use them much, unless I have a provincial city that is always busy training a certain regional unit I like (such as Cordinau Orca, Hoplitai, Mori Gaesum, Neitos, Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi, Galatikoi Kuarothoroi, Skuda Baexdzhyntae, Brihentin, Toxotai Kretikoi, etc) for which you need a type four government considering the level of regional MICs these units require as well as the fact the Type IV government gives your units +1 experience. Since I am Romani, I build Type II governments that give you much more bonuses than a Type IV government almost anywhere. The Client Rulers take up quite a bit of upkeep, you know. I have 98 territories and about 10 Type IV governments with a 45K income per turn (considering the huge amount of armies I have and the composition of the armies - they are made up of elites, with the exception of the slingers).

EDIT: the Type IV governments give you no real bonuses except for the +1 experience. The trade bonus is less then 30 extra mnai most of the time and there is a -5 happiness/public order penalty. Be sure to always build Temples to Jupiter in all of your cities that have Any corruption. In the beginning I built Temples of Ceres, but those only give you an about 50 mnai trade bonus for towns and about 110 mnai for cities. The Temples of Jupiter raise your income dramatically while giving twice more happiness than a Temple of Ceres, where half of the happiness is traded for a negligible trade bonus. ONLY build Temples to Ceres in cities with 0 corruption (be sure to check what cities have a corruption problem), which are most likely to be your Italian/closest to the capital cities. Also, do NOT build Latifundias/Agicultural Estates if you have or about to have corruption in your cities. They drastically reduce the income. Remember, law bonuses cut back on corruption while giving you a happiness bonus. The first happiness buildings you should build should be Temples to Jupiter as well as other law-giving buildings.

[APX]

When should I build a type 4 government? I've never really known at which settlements should I build on at, and I generally just build type 2.

[Aemilius Paulus]

When should I build a type 4 government? I've never really known at which settlements should I build on at, and I generally just build type 2.

I would continue on doing the same thing. Normally you are told that Type IV government is good for large cities with extensive infrastructure, which is generally true, considering the fact that a Type IV government does not allow you to build as many factional buildings. The biggest benefits of this government is that it is fast to install and you get a 5 influence, +1 Law Client Ruler general who may have a potential for further trait development.

So if you have a city that you have trouble pacifying, just use this government. However, most troublesome cities have large population, and normally I enslave the population of the sizable city or even a large town. The Type IV government is also good for the regional recruitment cities as I have already said. They give +1 experience to the troops and allow the building of high-level MICs (regional barracks). I also use this government to get (almost) free generals with a mounted bodyguard, who I then use as replenishable heavy cavalry. As a matter of fact, all of the cavalry in my armies are either family members, mercenary generals or Client Rulers, which come with the the benefit of regeneration.

Build Type I whenever you can. If not, just get Type II. In case you are playing Romani, you shouldn't have to worry about the availability of Type II government. I would stay away from Type III. The trade bonus s too little to be worth anything. If it ever comes down to choosing Type III or Type IV, I would however chose the latter (Type IV). What is interesting is that you actually almost always get more income and often times more happiness from Regional Pacification/Victor's Judgment (perquisite for government) because of the corruption-cutting law bonus.

[Grriffon]

I would continue on doing the same thing. Normally you are told that Type IV government is good for large cities with extensive infrastructure, which is generally true, considering the fact that a Type IV government does not allow you to build as many factional buildings. The biggest benefits of this government is that it is fast to install and you get a 5 influence, +1 Law Client Ruler general who may have a potential for further trait development.

So if you have a city that you have trouble pacifying, just use this government. However, most troublesome cities have large population, and normally I enslave the population of the sizable city or even a large town. The Type IV government is also good for the regional recruitment cities as I have already said. They give +1 experience to the troops and allow the building of high-level MICs (regional barracks). I also use this government to get (almost) free generals with a mounted bodyguard, who I then use as replenishable heavy cavalry. As a matter of fact, all of the cavalry in my armies are either family members, mercenary generals or Client Rulers, which come with the the benefit of regeneration.

Build Type I whenever you can. If not, just get Type II. In case you are playing Romani, you shouldn't have to worry about the availability of Type II government. I would stay away from Type III. The trade bonus s too little to be worth anything. If it ever comes down to choosing Type III or Type IV, I would however chose the latter (Type IV). What is interesting is that you actually almost always get more income and often times more happiness from Regional Pacification/Victor's Judgment (perquisite for government) because of the corruption-cutting law bonus.

I never use the Client Rulers except in a defensive role, since their huge movement penalty really slows down an army.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I never use the Client Rulers except in a defensive role, since their huge movement penalty really slows down an army.

Hmm, What version/patch of EB are you playing? I am playing EB v1.1, no patches, no personal modding (EB is awesome just as is) and my Client Rulers have just as much MP as any other infantry at the very least.

[Skandinav]

Azjeff, unless you want to restart ( not sure if it would even help as I have both the fixes and the bug you mention ) you should process_cq the Government Type "buildings" so you get the client rulers instantly and then give them the Type4governor trait manually before their life has lasted a turn and they get the interloper trait and name-change ( to ones that resemble those of your FM´s ).

Besides making use of Client Rulers as they are great fun I have to recommend making "real" FM´s recuitable if you consider restarting; the lack of FM´s are a real bother later on with the SPQR, certainly if you keep generals and their legions afield.

[Grriffon]

Hmm, What version/patch of EB are you playing? I am playing EB v1.1, no patches, no personal modding (EB is awesome just as is) and my Client Rulers have just as much MP as any other infantry at the very least.

I also play 1.1 with no patches or updates. I think it's a 30% movement penalty they get? I know they're cavalry, but they still end up being the slowest unit in an army for me.

[Foot]

Thats the point. They aren't meant to go out and campaign.

Foot

[Grriffon]

Thats the point. They aren't meant to go out and campaign.

Foot

I agree - I was simply pointing out why I don't use them as a heavy cavalry force in the way the previous poster does.

[Connacht]

IMHO a type 4 gov shouldn't give public order penalites, while a gov 3 should do this, because I think that a conquered city would be unhappier with the presence of an enemy militia and happier if left relatively free, although with a theorically puppet government.

[TheGlobalizer]

I always just build the most faction-centric government type I can manage. Type 4 govs are kinda annoying to me, though I do enjoy the realism.

[AzJeff]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies and advice!

I went back to my game and tried Skandinavs suggestion - build the Type4 and use give_trait on the leader, played a couple turns to see if the 'Interloper' trait showed up.....and it didn't!
Looks like if the leader has the 'Client Ruler' trait they will not acquire the 'Interloper' trait.

Very cool - I like being able to install these Type4s in the far-flung provinces and use my FMs for leading Legions or governing more important cities.
Perhaps when the regions have 'stabilized' I will change governments.

Very interesting advice from Aemilius Paulus - I will have to pay more attention to corruption etc in my cities before building temples. I usually always build temples to Jupiter because I like the big bonus.

Thanks again!

- j