Creationism in Museums and Schools

[cmacq]

My two cents, everyone please put on your conspiracy theory tin foil hats.

I think this creationism "Intelligent Design" vs. Evolution is absolutely fabricated, unnecessary, and a cheap publicity tactic. That is not to say people do not REALLY believe this stuff, passionately. But that's the herd. I think that a few whackos put the idea out there and I think religion has been declining and facing increasing irrelevance in modern life for decades. And it got them big attention. And then people attacked it. And then other religious people, not anywhere near as whacko as the original guys, felt like it was faith itself or belief in god being attacked, and rallied defensively around the cause. And meanwhile more publicity is heaped on the topic. Fast forward to today, intelligent design, and thus indirectly God and Christian religion, is a dinner table topic that you can't get away from in politics anymore. Christianity may be, as an organized religion, close to irrelevant in modern life, but it has resurrected itself (sorry pun) in political life with a vengeance. I think the idea that you have to choose between thinking God did everything magically with power coming off His Fingertips and you must believe literally that, only that and nothing but that, or else you are an evolution science-religion atheist trying to destroy faith, is an utterly false choice. Controversial, yes. That gives it lots of public airtime as an issue when it's a non-issue, in my mind. A cheap ploy to stay relevant, stay in the headlines, stay in people's conscious thoughts everyday.

No need for conspiracy theories. Parishioners pay for the expansion and support of their churches.

You may have an extremely cogent and apt thesis there, with a good deal of merit. However I may add that conversely, a small minority has passed themselves off as professionals/administrative types and pushed a so-called scientific version of creationism. Its important to note that these administrative types are supported by their constituency as well.

Still, I think "Intelligent Design" is an entirely different issue.



CmacQ

[Ser Clegane]

Thanks

[Rhyfelwyr]

So jewish people have a different sort of damp then

I've already explained this *sigh*

Yes they have , like....errrrrr..... science
As I said and now things have changed to the extent that more people are taking literal interpretations

Only our theories change...

...that wouldn't be the patron saint of Christian theologians saying your views are idiocy would it , especially your view on the literal interpretation of Genesis

To be honest I don't care what a Catholic theologian said, of course someone like Albert is popular nowadays but I don't really bother with the ideas of a theologian who thinks he knows better than scripture. Maybe he should have payed more attention to this:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

[rory_20_uk]

To be honest I don't care what a Catholic theologian said, of course someone like Albert is popular nowadays but I don't really bother with the ideas of a theologian who thinks he knows better than scripture. Maybe he should have payed more attention to this:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

Does that mean the newly found material will be incorporated into the Bible?

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I don't think the phrase "god created..." should really be used, but I notice all my teachers talk about evolution and science and always follow with "now I'm not preaching, just teaching!". Evolution can happen through god's power, right? I never fully understood the Christian argument on that one.

There are, however, certain parts of culture that come with Christianity that should be kept. In Europe it seems Islamic people are in general not overly pushy, but are...well...devout believers, which could lead to some culture shifts.

[Tribesman]

To be honest I don't care what a Catholic theologian said

Yes I can understand that , when a scholar of scripture says your views are idiocy it is best to ignore it .
I like the way you choose a passage from Timothy though Could you have found a book in the new testament that is of more questionable provenance at all ? hebrews perhaps

I've already explained this *sigh*

Yes you have , Jewish damp is different from other peoples damp

[Sigurd]

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

the 3:16 seems to be an important reference. Here is another:

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(2. Peter 3:16)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yes I can understand that , when a scholar of scripture says your views are idiocy it is best to ignore it .
I like the way you choose a passage from Timothy though Could you have found a book in the new testament that is of more questionable provenance at all ? hebrews perhaps

When that scholar attempts to overule scripture, well then yes of course. Why should I care if the Pope decides to make a man a saint? Even the idea of a saint in the Roman Catholic sense is an abomination - should I then respect his writings?

Yes you have , Jewish damp is different from other peoples damp

"Statute unto your people" - a phrase commonly used in the Old Testament to show that the law/commandment/idea refers specifically to Jewish people. In any case it is irrelevant since the coming of Christ as the many of the old laws no longer apply (or should no longer apply). I think its clear God didn't mean this was some sort of special ancient damp that only attacks Jewish households.

[Tribesman]

When that scholar attempts to overule scripture, well then yes of course.

Do you even know what theology is ?

Even the idea of a saint in the Roman Catholic sense is an abomination - should I then respect his writings?

So you have the catholics , episcopalians , eastern orthodox , the Lutherians , Coptic , Syriac, Armenian , Ethiopian , Malakara , Eritrean and Calvinist churches and they are all wrong because you don't like your views on science and scripture being called idiocy .
BTW the correct term is doctor not saint , since it is given to someone who studied extensively the scriptures in their many forms .

[Rhyfelwyr]

Do you even know what theology is ?

Well apparently to many it is the art of taking the divinely inspired scriptures and then corrupting it to suit the attitudes of your society at the time, whether they be humanism or liberalism etc.

So you have the catholics , episcopalians , eastern orthodox , the Lutherians , Coptic , Syriac, Armenian , Ethiopian , Malakara , Eritrean and Calvinist churches and they are all wrong because you don't like your views on science and scripture being called idiocy .
BTW the correct term is doctor not saint , since it is given to someone who studied extensively the scriptures in their many forms .

Almost all Calvinist churches do not embrace the RC idea of a saint. If you are referring to the idea of the perseverance of the saints, this refers to the elect and not just St. Patrick etc.

And yes those churches are all wrong on many matters because they have clouded their theological positions with tradition, and admit it! That is no better than allowing modern liberalism to infiltrate your church. It doesn't mean they are going to Hell, of course if they accept God then they will be fine. They just should drop many of their traditions which are offensive to the Lord.

[Koga No Goshi]

Well apparently to many it is the art of taking the divinely inspired scriptures and then corrupting it to suit the attitudes of your society at the time, whether they be humanism or liberalism etc.

Oh man, are you seriously trying to assert this has not always been the case? Read the book of Paul, most of the stuff in there was hand-tailored for maximum effect at the target GREEK audience.

[Ronin]

Well apparently to many it is the art of taking the divinely inspired scriptures and then corrupting it to suit the attitudes of your society at the time, whether they be humanism or liberalism etc.

which of course the people that wrote the "divinely" inspired book didn´t do in the first place....


ever considered that the people that wrote the stuff where "corrupt" to begin with???

[Tribesman]

Almost all Calvinist churches do not embrace the RC idea of a saint.

Do they accept the notion of a doctor of the church and a learned teacher of scripture ?

which of course the people that wrote the "divinely" inspired book didn´t do in the first place....

Well come on all the scriptures are the same aren't they , I mean honestly which version does Rhyfwer accept ? which version was that taken from , and which version was that taken from? blimey even if you skip the various greek and latin versions and go all the way back to the Jewish scriptures there was three main distict versions of them .
Its a bit like Navaros with his scripture thing , he doesn't even know which version it is he accepts as truth or why .

[Rhyfelwyr]

Do they accept the notion of a doctor of the church and a learned teacher of scripture ?

I'm pretty sure Albert the Great is not one of them, and no-one ever claimed Calvin's, Knox's, Beza's or whoever's writings were divinely inspired or worthy of similar respect to scripture.

Well come on all the scriptures are the same aren't they , I mean honestly which version does Rhyfwer accept ? which version was that taken from , and which version was that taken from? blimey even if you skip the various greek and latin versions and go all the way back to the Jewish scriptures there was three main distict versions of them .
Its a bit like Navaros with his scripture thing , he doesn't even know which version it is he accepts as truth or why .

KJV is what I read as its all I could find in my house, so I read it because its what I've got! I'm not openly religious in RL because I need to learn more before I can be an effective witness. I don't come from the Bible belt and I'm not surrounded by Christians. I asked about this and was given the example of Paul training for three years for attempting to minister.

I understand that the KJV is very reliable, although I've been warned against some versions, for example the NIV being biased for your average conservative US evangelical.

[Koga No Goshi]

Am I being ignored on purpose?

[Banquo's Ghost]

KJV is what I read as its all I could find in my house, so I read it because its what I've got! I'm not openly religious in RL because I need to learn more before I can be an effective witness. I don't come from the Bible belt and I'm not surrounded by Christians. I asked about this and was given the example of Paul training for three years for attempting to minister.

I understand that the KJV is very reliable, although I've been warned against some versions, for example the NIV being biased for your average conservative US evangelical.

I would echo the oft repeated words of our esteemed colleague Adrian II, who advises a wide reading around your chosen faith to illuminate the teaching of your bible.

And it may seem strange to you, but you could do a lot worse than ask Tribesman for guidance on reading material. His style is woefully confrontational, but he is like a Socrates here - he challenges, not provides, and those who care to take up his sometimes impenetrable challenges often find a great deal of useful information. I have found him to be especially well-read on scriptural matters and very well worth pursuing his tangents, most especially on the formulation and creation of the current biblical texts.

A strong faith benefits from a bit of challenge, methinks.

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm a fairly new-ish Christian and I'm afraid that sometimes I'm not up to taking the challenges I get set here, especially when I've got to answer to half the Backroom. In the end that's why I sometimes have to bow out and accept I can't help here, but it won't change my belief in God and so when I retreat then there's the allegations of "fundamentalist nut won't listen to anyone".

I'm still learning, in the end I know the people here seem to have a lot more experience and knowledge than me. I do try to keep an open mind, currently my big issue is understanding the doctrine of predestination, I started a thread for it on the Christian forums I use and its now several thousand posts long!

I honestly wish I could present the Christian case better on these forums, maybe on day I will. I do hope to read several versions of the Bible in my lifetime. Until then, one step at a time.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I'm a fairly new-ish Christian and I'm afraid that sometimes I'm not up to taking the challenges I get set here, especially when I've got to answer to half the Backroom. In the end that's why I sometimes have to bow out and accept I can't help here, but it won't change my belief in God and so when I retreat then there's the allegations of "fundamentalist nut won't listen to anyone".

You state your case well, and quite respectfully at that.

Tribes is Tribes, he does what he does. He's a bollox sniffing bloodhound. Which is both an insult and a compliment.

Your quest for a divine truth is not mine, but I wish you all the best with it. A quest for Christian salvation is often less about conversion of others as about an inward exploration of one's soul. If you find solace in it, then my blessing you have.



I'm not here to preach, or to scream 'nutter!' at others, or even to convince. We are here to read and marvel at the variety of opinions out there. What we do, is to learn about 'the others'. How else am I going to find out, through direct communication, what moves Christian fundamentalists? I mean, after all, I won't let you anywhere near my house and
It is herein that lies the value of a forum like this. i would say that nobody has ever posted something that did not change my mind.

[Tribesman]

KJV is what I read as its all I could find in my house, so I read it because its what I've got!

Ah , thats the one that is taken from 4 main different sources and written to agree mainly with two other versions but with changes of words and phrases to make them nicer to the ear isn't it .
Curiously one of those 4 sources is in the light of new discoveries considered the worst example to have used due to the fact that whoever wrote it must have been on the juice too much and did a very sloppy job . Its also strange that one of the doctors of theology you say doesn't know much about scripture had a role in the compilation of some of the material used .
Its just wierd that you can seem to imply to the absolute truth and divine inspiration of a collection of books when they have been altered so much and are still being altered today , and not only that but seem to have only one interpretation when Jewish , Christain and Islamc scripture still has massive schools worldwide dedicated to trying to interpret the scriptures(not even going to the work that is being undertaken with getting the dead sea scrolls readable and fitting them into the overall picture)

I honestly wish I could present the Christian case better on these forums

Well there is a challenge ,Christians have been argueing for 2000 years about what is the actual Christian case .

I do hope to read several versions of the Bible in my lifetime. Until then, one step at a time.

Fair play to ya

but he is like a Socrates here

Bollox

[InsaneApache]

but he is like a Socrates here

Whatever you do Tribes, do not accept a drink from that man!

[Rhyfelwyr]

Ah, this is a nice conclusion to a controversial topic.

[Sigurd]

I do try to keep an open mind, currently my big issue is understanding the doctrine of predestination, I started a thread for it on the Christian forums I use and its now several thousand posts long!

Hey if you ever want to read our thoughts on these matters, which might be a bit more challenging than those found on a Christian site btw, you know what to do .