Ptolemaioi armies

[Poppis]

I was browsing through the bibliography thread when I noticed that Edwyn R. Bevans book House of Ptolemy could be read online. I'm halfway through it and I already feel an urge to start a campaign with them.

The only faction I've played in EB is Romani and I truly enjoyed using historically accurate armies with them, so what I was wondering is what would a historically accurate Ptolemaioi army look like in EB?

Also any general hints&tips about the faction are welcome.

[Dubius Cato]

Please give the link dude. I had to spend 3 minutes to search for it!

For example here:
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/.../Preface*.html

[Dutchhoplite]

If you're reading Bevan you should be giving us tips and hints :)

About the Ptolemaic armies: the Ptolomaic army fighting Antiochos III will be completely different than the one fighting Ceasar :)

You guessed it: unfortunately "the Ptolomaic army" does not exist ;)

How historical will your campaign be and how will you use certain historical facts??

For instance: Their armies did not have many "Egyptian" in the army until the Raphia campaign of 217 BC. Before Raphia the army specifically kept native Egyptians out of the army to keep them unarmed and avoid rebellions. After Raphia the kingdom was rocked by native revolts.

*Makes note to restart Ptolomaic campaign*

[Poppis]

Ah, somehow I knew it wasn't going to be as easy as with Rome.

My campaigns are not in any way historical, I don't use Force Diplomacy. I just liked using historical armies in my previous campaign.

About natives not used before Raphia, the book actually questions this by saying that Diodorus mentioned the Ptolemaic army at the battle of Gaza(312 BC) to have included "a large body of Egyptians, some employed in the transport service, and others armed and serviceable for fighting". Of course the book was published in 1927, so I have no idea whether this has later been proven incorrect.

Anyway, if we assume they didn't use them, would the hellenic units alone be enough to defend against the Seleukeia in the beginning of the campaign?

[Ludens]

IIRC the Ptolemeans only started to use Egyptian pike-units at Raphia. They probably would have used them as psiloi and in the other Machimoi units before that.

At the start of the game, the Ptolemean field army would have resembled the Macedonian army, but for its garrisons it would have to rely on natives or regionals like Karians and Jewish spearmen. As time passed on, more and more natives would make their way into the field armies. AFAIK the Ptolemeans did use thureophoroi/thorakitai, but not to such an extent as the Seleucids.

Incidentally, the greater influx of natives into the field armies was not inevitable: if the Ptolemeans had succeeded in taking over the Seleucid military colonies, they could have used these to keep their field armies pure.

[Dutchhoplite]

Hmmm, Bevan gives a lot of options so you can go either way :)

Bezalel Bar-Kochva writes in his book on the Maccabean Revolt that the Ptolemaic rulers accepted native Egyptians in their armies, first as lights (from Diodorus??) and later as phalangites (from Polybius??).

[Poppis]

Yea, I was thinking about using natives as garrison-only at the start of the game and then gradually incorporating them into the field armies. The hellenic native spearmen seem like a nice cheap garrison unit.

But since my experience with EB is limited to two Romani campaigns(both ending in an unrecoverable(spelling?) CTD), I don't know much about the Asia Minor/Middle East area. So if I go for Hellenic units only, will I be able to compete with Seleukia? Do I lack any important unit types, like assault infantry or decent cavalry?

[Dutchhoplite]

I think you should be able to compete with the Seleucids. Try to grap Antiocheia quickly it's their most developed city in the region and the key to Asia Minor ;)

[Ludens]

The Ptolemean unit line-up is slightly less diverse than the Seleucid one, but there is still plenty of choice and no lack of quality. You won't get cataphracts and your infantry elites are somewhat different, but otherwise it's the same. It's rather that the Seleucids have access to Hellenic units in more places (until you conquer them, that is). However, they will need some time to tech-up, so if you are quick you can take them out before they can do so.

The only thing I can think of that the Ptolemeans lack is an high-end assault unit with an AP weapon. I haven't played them since 0.8, but IIRC their Royal Guard unit was changed into a hoplite type, so they don't use their AP kopis anymore. However, you do get the Galatian Kleruch that makes a formidable assaulter even without AP.

[Poppis]

Thank you both for the answers.

Started the campaign and doing ok(Got Antiocheia in the second year). I also checked the EDU and it seems The Royal Guards do still have secondery ap weapon, so yea for me(allthough for historical reasons I probably wont build so many of them).

Still got a quick question:

You got any idea how the "winter/summer campaign restricted" traits work, because they just seem so random. About half of my family members have the restriction in winters while the other half don't and in summer, only a couple of the generals have the summer campaign restriction. Whats up with that?

[Dubius Cato]

You got any idea how the "winter/summer campaign restricted" traits work, because they just seem so random. About half of my family members have the restriction in winters while the other half don't and in summer, only a couple of the generals have the summer campaign restriction. Whats up with that?

It depends on where they are stationed. In very hot climes (e.g. the Egyptian desert) they are restricted in the summer, and in temperate climes they are restricted in winter (not enough food etc.).

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Yeah, the seasonal restrictions are actually based on the last town the general ended a turn in, since that is the only way for the script to know a location. For some weird reason, generals will occationally get both restrictions. Just have him spend some time in a town and the wrong restriction should go away.

[Poppis]

Ah, that explains it.

Was weird having a general marching through a desert and having winter campaign restricted.