forgetting any voicemods?

[artavazd]

For around 500 years Armenia as an independent nation did not exist. Since 1375 when the Kingdom of Cilicia fell to Mameluk and Turkish forces untill 1991 Armenia as a nation did not exist. During this 500 years there was no oppertunity to do any extensive study on Armenians or Armenian civilization. The larger part of Armenia which was under Ottoman rule was supressed and when in the late 19th century the Armenian inteligencia from Constantinople (Istanbul) was begining to revive interest in Armenians for their history The Genocide put an end to this. Now in the eastern Part of Armenia which was under Soviet rule any kind of action which was deemed "nationalistic" was crushed. THis will include any studies on Armenian history by Armenian scholars let alone non Armenian scholars from Europe or United States. Now since 1991 when the soviet part of Armenia regained Independence there is the oppertunity for seriouse scholarly work on Ancient Armenian history. The scholars that I have mentioned in the previouse posts have done seriouse scholary work, and the home land for Indo-European speaking People is now favoured to be in the Armenian Highlands. This theory is based on archiological, lingusitical, and historical sources.


I have never said Rome or Greece is insignificant. They are very significant. Yet one has to understand that much scholary work has gone into those civilizations thus we know much about those civilizations. Also I never said the Romans do not exist. In my opinion the Italians of Rome and central Italy are the decendats of the Romans.


I have provided names of scholars and recent scholary work that has been done on Ancient Armenian history. WHo ever is interested is welcome to check out the scholars and their works concerning this issue.


Pontius Pilate, In the United States all people know of ancient history is Rome, Greeks, and Egyptians. I am sorry but saying that "no one knows of Armenia" in the United States is very understandable, because in America people cant even find Australia on the map.


I have attended college in America, and in my Ancient Greece class the professor did not even know about the Persians, Lydians, and other people who if one is a professor of Ancient Greece should have a knowledge of.

[Pontius Pilate]

For around 500 years Armenia as an independent nation did not exist.


Pontius Pilate, In the United States all people know of ancient history is Rome, Greeks, and Egyptians. I am sorry but saying that "no one knows of Armenia" in the United States is very understandable, because in America people cant even find Australia on the map.


I have attended college in America, and in my Ancient Greece class the professor did not even know about the Persians, Lydians, and other people who if one is a professor of Ancient Greece should have a knowledge of.

Yes, I admit it is very unfortunate that most Americans are ignorant in geography, history, and other world cultures.


[QUOTE] By: gamegeek 2. --The real reason Rome gets so much attention is because they were the victors. History, as we all know, is written by the victors. Their language survives to modern times intact, as well as extremely detailed records of their history.

The next-best detailed people are the Hellenes, because their language (Classical Greek) survives via scholars as well, and so do their records. Unfortunately, there is a lot less about Ancient Armenia.[/QUOTE]

Is it a bad thing that Rome gets all the attention because they were the victors? I mean they did conquer many peoples including almost all of the factions in EB. Which is no easy task. Are you saying history is deluded or propagnada by the victors?


P.S. - My sig has nothing to do with my point of view on this topic. Seriously.

[Foot]

Yes, it is very unfortunate that Rome gets all the attention. It skews the modern perception of the ancient world and allows us to neglect, ignore and actively re-write the influence on those conquered peoples who hold an equal part in our history. Plus, Rome is boring. Give me Armenia anyday.

Foot

[Pontius Pilate]

Yes, it is very unfortunate that Rome gets all the attention. It skews the modern perception of the ancient world and allows us to neglect, ignore and actively re-write the influence on those conquered peoples who hold an equal part in our history. Plus, Rome is boring. Give me Armenia anyday.

Foot

Wow. Pretty strong words. Well I think Rome deserves all the attention it gets because it accomplished so many things and laid the foundation for western society for centuries to come. I am not going to insult or downplay other factions like Armenia, other factions were important too I admit, but I do think you're treating Rome way too unfairly. Rome was one of the greatest civilizations ever to exist or will exist, and is in nooo way boring.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I'd leave Foot alone if I were you. He is just hates the way Rome gets all the attention, after all he's right that Rome is the reason why people know so little about other nations of Antiquity. I doubt he truly feels that Roman history is boring. Plus, he's the current leader of EB development team - it's best to be on good terms with him.

I also agree with you that Rome was the most important nation of its time, but there are people with other opinions (however wrong they might be ) as well.

[Pontius Pilate]

I meant no offense to Foot or anyone else, sorry if I offended. I was merely saying my opinion. Thanks for the support Aemilius Paulus, glad to see another Romani fan here.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I meant no offense to Foot or anyone else, sorry if I offended.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I never said that you offended anyone, I was merely warning you that it doesn't take a lot to turn Foot against you. Better watch out for him - he stays true to his name, crushing every post that is goes against history and EB!

[The Persian Cataphract]

This passage from Justin's Historiarum Philippicarum is to me the perfect counter of anyone who seeks to deliberately downplay the macro-historical significance, influence and importance of Armenia in the alleged shade of Graeco-Roman or even Persianate cultures:

"...Sed quoniam in Armeniam transitum facimus, origo eius paulo altius repetenda est. Neque enim silentio tantum regnum praeteriri fas est, cum fines eius post Parthiam omnium regnorum magnitudinem superent..."

"...But since we here make a transition to Armenia, we must look a little farther back into its origin; for it is not right that so great a kingdom should be passed in silence, since its territory, next to that of Parthia, is of greater extent than any other kingdom..." Liber XLII, Vol.2

Marcus Junianius Justinus, a Roman of his time, acknowledges the greatness of this sacred land of Ararat. The bosom of Armenia, including her famed foothills, was a land harboured between the rivers Halys, Kura and Araxes, the plains of Albania, the mountains of Iberia, the forests of Hyrcania and Colchis, the deserts of Assyria and the steppes of Cappadocia. A vast stretch extending their culture well into the cultures of the Black and Caspian seas.

Two of the dynasties of this land were of Iranian descent. The Achaemenid high nobility. The Iranians would call them the kings of "Arvand". The Greeks would call them the kings of "Orontes". The Armenians call them the Yervanduni. The other Iranic dynasty, the successors of the famed Artaxiads, the Arsacid cadet branch, Arshakuni, have an even more lasting influence. It was through an Arsacid that Armenia would become the first nation to institutionalize Christianity as her state religion. Some say it is an irony. Others maintain that it set Armenia culturally more apart from her Persianate cousins, previously the Arsacid and Sassanid dynasties of the Greater Iran. From the Iranian perspective, the Armenian history is an absolutely crucial component.

The mob has never been an adequately objective "instrument" of measurement of historical or cultural impact as some of you would like to suggest. It only measures popular appeal, and hardly serves as a reflection of facts. I can certainly understand Artavazd might be disgruntled by someone like Mr. Aemilius "Politically Incorrect" Paulus, who is already infamous for making rash entries on arbitrating cultural significance of other nations. The culture of Armenia does not need to gratuitously flaunt its greatness just to satisfy popular curricula; it is survived by its own beautiful script, institutionalized by the eminent Mashtots, and a respectable collection of historiography written by Vartapet Yeghishe, and Sebeos. To Iranian history, these works are invaluable treasures.

Last but not least, one of the greatest Armenian rulers, Tigranes carved for himself an empire from absolutely nothing. He was a key-personality during the first Parthian civil war and that of the Mithridatic wars, and was the last of several persons to have sank the Seleucid hegemony into final decline.

Who cares about the mob? Ask a teenager about Marc Anthony and Cleopatra and he or she will probably answer "the most romantic couple of Antiquity" or "Romeo and Juliet of the ancient era". A historian schooled in Armenian history will however answer "The political Bonnie and Clyde of their time", or even go as far as to say that they were the grotesque result of Ptolemaïc incest and Roman egomania. Which really isn't that far from the truth. It's a refreshingly sobering read to be made aware of their strangulation of Armenia. Not quite like Liz Taylor, eh? Sounds like a lot of Rome-bashing, but the bizarre fact is that the likes of Cassius Dio, Plutarch and Justin passed down this information for our reading. Either the Romans weren't all "The world is Rome" as much as Hollywood would like to orgasm to, or the mob needs to shape up. My money's on the latter.

The world is Rome. If the world was no greater than the stupidity of the common man, that is. Armenia needs no justification to satisfy the common sensibilities. She doesn't need the historical size of her Graeco-Roman and Iranian cousins to have a comparable beauty.

And to top it off, "Western Civilization", a phrase that I do not personally accept, needs to get a clue as far as the Graeco-Roman civilization is concerned. There was more to Europe, but it wasn't this perverted, skewed perception on a homogeneous commonwealth European identity standing opposite to their Oriental rivals. I hear most of this cacophony from Scandinavians, Western-Europeans and the Americans. This sort of inspiration, which is far much more apt as far as designations are concerned are not limited to nor the property of Europe, but stretches far into the depths of Asia, with the Sassanian city of Bîshâpûr being far more ample than some occasional potsherd in Britain.

I do not condone or propose the down-playing of any significant cosmopolitan culture; the inflation of Graeco-Roman culture by Eurocentric "scholarship" is a perversion of facts more serious than the contemporary sensationalism in the primary sources. They come at the expense of other cultures, and to point out these discrepancies is only fair and a standard in the protocal of scholarly peer-review. I constantly remind my Arab friends about the rich heritage of the pre-Islamic Arabian cultures, which were left in the shadows of Islam as an "age of ignorance" in spite of the fact that they had their own highly developed script and left behind themselves a significant number of written works. That the "idols" that Mohammed Ibn Abd'allah denoted as "false", were in fact elaborate statues and highly developed works of art. That the backwardness and poverty of the Arabs before Islam is in fact contrasted by the lush landscapes of the Mar'ib.

The mob means nothing to me. If they haven't at least bothered to have read A.E. Redgate's "The Armenians", let alone taken a glimpse of the exquisite works of Mark Chahin and Cyril Toumanoff, then I will not even pay heed to their valueless impressions of historical Armenia.

[Pontius Pilate]

The mob has never been an adequately objective "instrument" of measurement of historical or cultural impact as some of you would like to suggest. It only measures popular appeal, and hardly serves as a reflection of facts.
The mob means nothing to me. If they haven't at least bothered to have read A.E. Redgate's "The Armenians", let alone taken a glimpse of the exquisite works of Mark Chahin and Cyril Toumanoff, then I will not even pay heed to their valueless impressions of historical Armenia.

wow, that was quite a large post. and yes non-western cultures are very important and had a large impact on the world. and yes the mob or common people, are not a very good instrument to measure anything for that matter. But then again history has shown that the mob itself has more times than not played a huge part in the history of the world. The fate of entire nations and empires has been decided by the mob. A person who wants to make a huge difference in the world usually needs the support of the mob if they want to get anywhere. It might not seem fair, but that is just how things work in this world.