forgetting any voicemods?

[Aemilius Paulus]

How exactly do you measure a culture's impact on history? Is there a chart with guidelines that has different levels like "somewhat", "little" or "huge"?

C'mon lets not play dumb. You know what I mean, with all due respect, the Romans and Greeks had more of an impact on the history of the world than Armenia. You don't exactly need a chart to figure that out.

[artavazd]

I was talking about Armenia's impact on history, not its longevity, which I do find pretty amazing, especially during the time when some Armenians migrated to Kilikia and founded an independent kingdom there, during the Crusades.

I am sorry that you felt that some of my comment were offensive. I tried my best not offend anyone, especially an Armenian fan/native(?) such as you. Once again, I'd like to point out how unnecessarily touchy and assertive people get when their nation is called unimportant. Are you trying to argue that Armenia was more important then the Syrian Empire/Arche Seleukia? I agree that Armenia was important, but to say that it was more crucial then the Seleukids or especially the Romans and Greeks is, well ... just not what I believe to be true.

I was born in Ukraine, but lived m life in Russia. I would not mind for instance, if someone called Ukraine or Russia (before 20th century - when it became really important with WWII and Cold War) unimportant. There is always arguments for both sides. Also, please note that I am not trying to start flaming. I'd like to keep this discussion civil.

I did list some of the impacts Armenia has had. One of several impacts that I did not mention, is that Armenia has historicaly been the gates to Europe in the East. From the TIme of the Ararat Kingdom(Urartu) of Armenia when the Assyrians were checked from advancing north and west, to the invasion of Arabs, Iranians,Turks, Mongols... One of two things happend. One either Armenia checked the invaders, or felt the full impact of those invasions, thus weakening the invading force by the time they got to eastern Europe.

Also look at this link http://www.huliq.com/56596/stoneheng...enian-karahunj

Also why do you call the Arche Seleukia "Syrian Empire"? what the heck was Syrian about a Greek Empire? Also I will like to mention that the inhabitants of Antioch called on the Armenian King Tigran the Great (KIng of Kings) to get rid of the Seleukids in their city and they willingly became part of the Armenian Empire. That happend in the 80's BC which basicaly ended Arche Seleukia. Now we are at 2008 AD Armenia is on the map but where is "Arche Seleukia"


Russia was not unimportant before the 20th century. Ivan the terrible, Peter the Great do these names ring a bell? I am sorry to say, but your knowledge of history is very scetchy.

[blitzkrieg80]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense in terms of culture and importance

[Gleemonex]

Rome was completely insignificant to the Inca. The Jōmon people were inconsequential to the Prussians. The Zulu Empire was unimportant to the Tsimshian. But I'll bet you anything the Armenians are pretty important to Armenians!

(It's a subjective term, you see)

-Glee

[Aemilius Paulus]

I called it the Syrian Empire because that is the way it is called in Russia, by everyone and everything. Don't ask why, I don't know myself. Could be because of the fact that Antioch was the capital of it for quite some time.

Please, call me anything but ignorant in history. One could not make a greater insult than that. History is pretty much all I live for. I excel in it and that is my main strength. I never said Russia was unimportant. What I really said, If you have read it more carefully, was that you can call Russia and Ukraine unimportant and it will not offend me, unlike you getting offended for having your country slandered that way. Russia was very important, especially during 19th and 18th centuries. However, some people might argue that nations like Britain were more important. During WWII and Cold War, one would be an idiot to deny Russia's importance. It was a major world power then, with one of the largest and best armies and also with the largest land territory.

I would not agree however that Russia was very important in the 1500s-1600s though. Ivan IV was an important Russian figure and he greatly expanded Russia's territory, but outside of Russia, his impact was very limited. After him there was the lengthy Time of Troubles, which cut off Russia from mast foreign powers, although Poland as well as some other Central European Catholic nations did intervene. Peter I was another momentous ruler but he mainly impacted countries such as Sweden and Ottoman Empire, whom he fought against as well as Poland, who was likewise involved in the Great Northern War. Effects on, say, Western Europe were somewhat significant but not as important as minor policies of Britain or France of that time, for example. There were nations far more crucial than Russia at that time. The first time Russia really becomes a world power was during the Seven Years War and of course the Napoleonic Wars.

For God's sake, don't assume that I do not know who Ivan IV or Peter I was. I probably even know more about them than you, having done extensive research on both of them. They were one of the most famous tsars of Russia, and being Russian I ought to know more than any other foreigner. You know your Armenian history better than me, without a doubt, but I have Russian history on my side. I also specialize in Antiquity as well as European history from the Dark Ages to now. My knowledge of Armenia on the other hand only covers a tiny bit of ancient history, the time between the fall of Sleukids to the time when Byzantine Empire fell (the period I know most about), some fragmented knowledge during Early Middle Ages and quite a bit of modern, 20th century history. I am sure you know the history of Armenia better than that.

It is either you're trying to prove your nation's importance too hard, or your nationalistic ego is a bit too inflated.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Now I am thinking this might be getting too off topic and will be promptly crushed by the Foot.

[Tellos Athenaios]

To Tellos Athenaios: Yeah, I realized that recently as well. However, I have heard that some of parts of the voicemod apply to cultures as a whole, such as when you select a couple of units instead of one, n'est-ce pas?

Yes. Which is what happens if an Armenian unit leads the battle, so in other words: that should only happen with armies composed of primarily Armenian units. Either a local army then (for which it makes good sense to use Armenian) or an army of an Armenian polity. In either case, that's a cool immersive feature isn't it?

Also, I forgot to tell you; the number of Voicemods isn't neccesarily an indication of the (wo)man-power EB got: quite a few are joint efforts, opportunities to work with people outside EB and/or it may involve team members who'se efforts are wasted elsewhere. I mean, I can 'do' Ancient Greek a bit but I'm worthless by any form of decent standards when it comes to historical research. So, I'll hope to find time to do more on the Ancient Greek Voicemod, but the fact that I do does not indicate EB is -in theory- ready to release the Hellenistic factions.

@Foot: yeah, I see what you mean however there is a difference between 'EB 1' and 'EB 2': in EB 1 as we both know it would be impossible due to similar restrictions as those that apply to the Voicemod for the Sweboz in EB 1. In EB 2 with its system of accents, thats a whole different matter and if we have the opportunity .... it's going to be so awesome.

[blitzkrieg80]

Russia (the geographical unit) is not necessarily defined by the Slavs. Russia was quite a bit important all the while steppe peoples poured forth (which is quite a span of time)... one cannot say the Scythic culture zone was inconsequential, nor the Kipchak, ect. Central Asia is equally underestimated and luckily has been getting some due attention such as in EB with the help of such knowledgeable interested people as we've got. It may be that the oasis cities and high Islamic / Persian cultures of Central Asia makes it seem more immediately 'important' than pagans in Eurasia, but as has been argued, that is a very subjective thing. Religion in many ways helps the spread of literacy and the cultural value associated with the great works produced, but in many ways, the stories written were just as valuable as a piece of oral tradition, if not more valuable, because oral tradition keeps it fluid and dynamic, changing aspects on the fly depending on audience, changing words to make the story new every time. Jazz came about from this very thing, because improvisation is an important aspect of human culture that is NOT helped by literacy despite its best efforts.

[artavazd]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense in terms of culture and importance

You will be interested in this. http://www.arak29.am/PDF_PPT/origins_2004.pdf

Also check out the works of Colin Renfrew, Vyacheslav Ivanov, Thomas Gamkrelidze, Atkins and Gray

[artavazd]

I called it the Syrian Empire because that is the way it is called in Russia, by everyone and everything. Don't ask why, I don't know myself. Could be because of the fact that Antioch was the capital of it for quite some time.

Please, call me anything but ignorant in history. One could not make a greater insult than that. History is pretty much all I live for. I excel in it and that is my main strength. I never said Russia was unimportant. What I really said, If you have read it more carefully, was that you can call Russia and Ukraine unimportant and it will not offend me, unlike you getting offended for having your country slandered that way. Russia was very important, especially during 19th and 18th centuries. However, some people might argue that nations like Britain were more important. During WWII and Cold War, one would be an idiot to deny Russia's importance. It was a major world power then, with one of the largest and best armies and also with the largest land territory.

I would not agree however that Russia was very important in the 1500s-1600s though. Ivan IV was an important Russian figure and he greatly expanded Russia's territory, but outside of Russia, his impact was very limited. After him there was the lengthy Time of Troubles, which cut off Russia from mast foreign powers, although Poland as well as some other Central European Catholic nations did intervene. Peter I was another momentous ruler but he mainly impacted countries such as Sweden and Ottoman Empire, whom he fought against as well as Poland, who was likewise involved in the Great Northern War. Effects on, say, Western Europe were somewhat significant but not as important as minor policies of Britain or France of that time, for example. There were nations far more crucial than Russia at that time. The first time Russia really becomes a world power was during the Seven Years War and of course the Napoleonic Wars.

For God's sake, don't assume that I do not know who Ivan IV or Peter I was. I probably even know more about them than you, having done extensive research on both of them. They were one of the most famous tsars of Russia, and being Russian I ought to know more than any other foreigner. You know your Armenian history better than me, without a doubt, but I have Russian history on my side. I also specialize in Antiquity as well as European history from the Dark Ages to now. My knowledge of Armenia on the other hand only covers a tiny bit of ancient history, the time between the fall of Sleukids to the time when Byzantine Empire fell (the period I know most about), some fragmented knowledge during Early Middle Ages and quite a bit of modern, 20th century history. I am sure you know the history of Armenia better than that.

It is either you're trying to prove your nation's importance too hard, or your nationalistic ego is a bit too inflated.

Sir there is a lot more Armenian history pretaining to the ancient era that covers more than the time between the fall of the Seleukids and and the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Just look at the link I have posted in the above post, and check out the scholars that I have mentioned in that post as well. The mentioning of Armenia-Armani is found on Akkadian tablets dating to around 2300 BC. This exact tablet is found in the Museum in London. Also the Sumerians make mention of the land of Arata(Ararat) they talk of extended trade with the people of Arata. Also mention the skilled stone crafters that came to Sumeria and worked on their ziggurats.

I suggest for the sake of knowledge to check out the works of the above mentioned scholars. This is new scholary work and findings based on Archeology, Lingustics, and historical primary sources.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Sir there is a lot more Armenian history pretaining to the ancient era that covers more than the time between the fall of the Seleukids and and the fall of the Byzantine Empire.

Yeah, I know that. That is why I said I know only this period, to emphasize the gaps in my knowledge of Armenian history. My pre-Seleukid knowledge of the history history of Armenia is very basic, with only the knowledge of the most important events.

[blitzkrieg80]

from what i can tell, we're all in agreement we just like to talk.

artavazd, cool .pdf link, thanks - enjoyable read.

[artavazd]

from what i can tell, we're all in agreement we just like to talk.

artavazd, cool .pdf link, thanks - enjoyable read.

Your are welcome sir. That article is based on the works of Colin Renfrew, Vyacheslav Ivanov, Thomas Gamkrelidze, Atkins and Gray

[artavazd]

Yeah, I know that. That is why I said I know only this period, to emphasize the gaps in my knowledge of Armenian history. My pre-Seleukid knowledge of the history history of Armenia is very basic, with only the knowledge of the most important events.

That is very understandable. Since recently not a lot of study has gone into the very ancient history of Armenia. The possibilites of scholars doing seriouse work on the subject was just not there. Now there is intrest in the subject, and the scholars that I mentioned have done seriouse work on this very matter.

ps: If you have interest (or anyone else for that matter) on the very Ancient history of Armenia and Armenians there is a book that was published I think in 2006 by Boris Baratov (it is in English) the name of the book is The Armeniad

[Anastasios Helios]

*pours water on the flames here*

I'm available to help with an English voice mod...if it's needed XD

[gamegeek2]

OK, is there any preview for a Punic/Semitic voice mod? Though historically general orders were given in Greek by the Carthaginians, I'm sure officers of Liby-Phoenician, Libyan, and the elite Phoenician units gave orders in Punic for the most part. I'm sure Sabaean orders were native-only, except Ethiopian units.

Eimi ad Europa Barbarorum leidan

[Pontius Pilate]

First of all your comment that I have made in bold is offensive. I will however tell you this in the Long and I mean very long history of Armenia many nations that you might view as "more important" have tryed to do just that. However they have all failed miserably, and many of those "important" nations do not even exist today. While Armenia has kept its traditions and culture alive for over three thousand years. Now my friend I think that in itself makes Armenia a very important nation.

You need to do more research MUCH MUCH more research. FIrst of all what is it that the Seleukids did that outweighs over 3000 years of Armenian history?? Where are the Seleukids?? Erebuni which is modern Yerevan was built in 782BC 29 years before the name Rome even existed. Armenian art and arcitecture have added much wealth to Human civilization. European gothic churches were inspired by Armenian Church architecture. Armenia was one of the centers of the Neolithic agricultural revolution not to mention irrigation, and metalurgy

No offense, but I don't think you can compare the influence Rome had on the world with Armenia. So what if ancient Roman civilization no longer exists. It has left a legacy that is remembered to this day by people all over the world. When you mention ancient Rome almost anyone can identify with what you're talking about, but when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.

[Anastasios Helios]

No offense, but I don't think you can compare the influence Rome had on the world with Armenia. So what if ancient Roman civilization no longer exists. It has left a legacy that is remembered to this day by people all over the world. When you mention ancient Rome almost anyone can identify with what you're talking about, but when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.

Kyrie Elesion! Armenia is a wonderful country with a long history of survival in the face of overwhelming odds. Armenia survived attacks from Persians, Greeks/Byzantines, Romans, Seljuks, Ottomans, Russians, etc. for many many centures and their culture and civilization is still there intact. If you were Armenian or Pontian or Georgian, what would "Roman Civilization" mean to you? It depends only on location. To an Italian or Romanian person, Roman culture and civilization probably means alot...I'm sure that people in Eastern Anatolia, Armenia, or the Caucausus region finds Armenian civilization to be just as important as Roman civilization is for Westerners...

[Gleemonex]

No offense, but I don't think you can compare the influence Rome had on the world with Armenia. So what if ancient Roman civilization no longer exists. It has left a legacy that is remembered to this day by people all over the world. When you mention ancient Rome almost anyone can identify with what you're talking about, but when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.

I see someone forgot to read his Gleemonex this morning:

Rome was completely insignificant to the Inca. The Jōmon people were inconsequential to the Prussians. The Zulu Empire was unimportant to the Tsimshian. But I'll bet you anything the Armenians are pretty important to Armenians!

(It's a subjective term, you see)

-Glee

Also, you can hardly be considered a neutral voice when your name is Pontius Pilate

Seriously though, the whole point of EB is to dispel the false notion that Rome = The World.

-Glee

[Strategos Alexandros]

:ahem: Armenia (in the general geographical sense- such as the steppe nearby [t'was not Russia, Ukraine, or Kazakistan at the time]) continues to be one of the best candidates for the Indo-European homeland, which really trumps any Greco-Roman nonsense in terms of culture and importance

No Armenia = No Rome if Armenia really was the Indo-European homeland.

[bovi]

No Armenia = No Rome if Armenia really was the Indo-European homeland.

So you think no other people could have had the same success, if Indo-Europeans had not been those who were there?

when you mention Armenia hardly anyone even knows that country even exists today.

In the US, you mean perhaps? I do agree that Rome is more known, but many people here on the other side of the pond know of Armenia. Then again, I'm weak on knowledge of the many nations in the parts of the world that are remote, like the non-huge nations in central America and Asia.

[Strategos Alexandros]

No, but it does seem unlikely they would have had that success in the same place.
If you mean the Romans, that is, not the Indo-Europeans.

[bovi]

Empires come and go, and many were trying to create one at the time. If not for Roman dominance, I believe another dominant empire would have been created in the time period.

[Pontius Pilate]

Also, you can hardly be considered a neutral voice when your name is Pontius Pilate





About what Bovi said. Of course alot of people on this forum will know alot about Armenia. The people on this forum will also know alot more about geography, and history in general because we all love those subjects, (hence we play games like EB). I guess I meant people in the US, but then again I don't think many Australians or far east asians will be experts on Armenian history and impact on the world.



Seriously though, the whole point of EB is to dispel the false notion that Rome = The World.

-Glee[/QUOTE]


First off Rome = The World is not true. But then again in EB it also has the most attention given to it, or should I say it is the most complete with the three reforms and the latin voice mod. Well it all seems that its a matter of opinion then, on who is more important. I'm guessing if you already think Armenia is more important than there is going to be nothing that will make you think Rome is more important and vice versa.

[gamegeek2]

The real reason Rome gets so much attention is because they were the victors. History, as we all know, is written by the victors. Their language survives to modern times intact, as well as extremely detailed records of their history.

The next-best detailed people are the Hellenes, because their language (Classical Greek) survives via scholars as well, and so do their records. Unfortunately, there is a lot less about Ancient Armenia.

I personally believe that the Indo-European homeland is just north of the Caucasus (they seemed to be a nomadic/pastoral people).

[artavazd]

For around 500 years Armenia as an independent nation did not exist. Since 1375 when the Kingdom of Cilicia fell to Mameluk and Turkish forces untill 1991 Armenia as a nation did not exist. During this 500 years there was no oppertunity to do any extensive study on Armenians or Armenian civilization. The larger part of Armenia which was under Ottoman rule was supressed and when in the late 19th century the Armenian inteligencia from Constantinople (Istanbul) was begining to revive interest in Armenians for their history The Genocide put an end to this. Now in the eastern Part of Armenia which was under Soviet rule any kind of action which was deemed "nationalistic" was crushed. THis will include any studies on Armenian history by Armenian scholars let alone non Armenian scholars from Europe or United States. Now since 1991 when the soviet part of Armenia regained Independence there is the oppertunity for seriouse scholarly work on Ancient Armenian history. The scholars that I have mentioned in the previouse posts have done seriouse scholary work, and the home land for Indo-European speaking People is now favoured to be in the Armenian Highlands. This theory is based on archiological, lingusitical, and historical sources.


I have never said Rome or Greece is insignificant. They are very significant. Yet one has to understand that much scholary work has gone into those civilizations thus we know much about those civilizations. Also I never said the Romans do not exist. In my opinion the Italians of Rome and central Italy are the decendats of the Romans.


I have provided names of scholars and recent scholary work that has been done on Ancient Armenian history. WHo ever is interested is welcome to check out the scholars and their works concerning this issue.


Pontius Pilate, In the United States all people know of ancient history is Rome, Greeks, and Egyptians. I am sorry but saying that "no one knows of Armenia" in the United States is very understandable, because in America people cant even find Australia on the map.


I have attended college in America, and in my Ancient Greece class the professor did not even know about the Persians, Lydians, and other people who if one is a professor of Ancient Greece should have a knowledge of.

[Pontius Pilate]

For around 500 years Armenia as an independent nation did not exist.


Pontius Pilate, In the United States all people know of ancient history is Rome, Greeks, and Egyptians. I am sorry but saying that "no one knows of Armenia" in the United States is very understandable, because in America people cant even find Australia on the map.


I have attended college in America, and in my Ancient Greece class the professor did not even know about the Persians, Lydians, and other people who if one is a professor of Ancient Greece should have a knowledge of.

Yes, I admit it is very unfortunate that most Americans are ignorant in geography, history, and other world cultures.


[QUOTE] By: gamegeek 2. --The real reason Rome gets so much attention is because they were the victors. History, as we all know, is written by the victors. Their language survives to modern times intact, as well as extremely detailed records of their history.

The next-best detailed people are the Hellenes, because their language (Classical Greek) survives via scholars as well, and so do their records. Unfortunately, there is a lot less about Ancient Armenia.[/QUOTE]

Is it a bad thing that Rome gets all the attention because they were the victors? I mean they did conquer many peoples including almost all of the factions in EB. Which is no easy task. Are you saying history is deluded or propagnada by the victors?


P.S. - My sig has nothing to do with my point of view on this topic. Seriously.

[Foot]

Yes, it is very unfortunate that Rome gets all the attention. It skews the modern perception of the ancient world and allows us to neglect, ignore and actively re-write the influence on those conquered peoples who hold an equal part in our history. Plus, Rome is boring. Give me Armenia anyday.

Foot

[Pontius Pilate]

Yes, it is very unfortunate that Rome gets all the attention. It skews the modern perception of the ancient world and allows us to neglect, ignore and actively re-write the influence on those conquered peoples who hold an equal part in our history. Plus, Rome is boring. Give me Armenia anyday.

Foot

Wow. Pretty strong words. Well I think Rome deserves all the attention it gets because it accomplished so many things and laid the foundation for western society for centuries to come. I am not going to insult or downplay other factions like Armenia, other factions were important too I admit, but I do think you're treating Rome way too unfairly. Rome was one of the greatest civilizations ever to exist or will exist, and is in nooo way boring.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I'd leave Foot alone if I were you. He is just hates the way Rome gets all the attention, after all he's right that Rome is the reason why people know so little about other nations of Antiquity. I doubt he truly feels that Roman history is boring. Plus, he's the current leader of EB development team - it's best to be on good terms with him.

I also agree with you that Rome was the most important nation of its time, but there are people with other opinions (however wrong they might be ) as well.