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  1. #1
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The compassion of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Im not lecturing people at all. Everyones family has problems everyones family has tough times. But giving more power to the government and taking away more of you neighbors money is not the answer especially when its coerced and especially when the government is notoriously bad at solving anything in the first place.
    I know you're not lecturing people. But that is the argument against any form of safety net. That people should just be responsible for themselves. This isn't the Wild West anymore nor should it be. If we want the Wild West then fine, corporations can hand back in all their tax incentives and deductions for raping the public and we can stop doing "interventions" overseas so that American industries can go in and get lucrative tax subsidized contracts to do reconstruction work or oil distribution.

    And, I don't have any neighbors making millions of dollars, do you? My neighbors probably pay a couple thousand (like, 5 or less) each April. They're on the higher side of middle class and all have homes and insurance. I don't see any of them being coerced out of anything. You make it sound like the taxman comes to a struggling family's house and beats them up until he gets a cut. Let's talk about who we're really talking about. Corporations and the wealthy and the upper middle class and above.

    Do you know, btw, any stable investments I can put money in where less than 3% of their costs go to administrative costs and bureaucracy and hedge fund manager paychecks? Cause I'll put the money there instead of SS, if you can guarantee it's not going to grab all the money and duck out to Switzerland or the Caymans and leave me broke. I doubt there is one, though.

    The idea that everything private runs better than everything government is just myth, Strike. Current events should be testament to that. Enron, Citibank, Wall Street, Countrywide, mortgage lenders, WAMU, the CA energy contractors, Halliburton... If you want to talk about humans being corrupt and greedy, okay, but I don't see why you would draw a line that private is better than public in that regard. I see no evidence of it.
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: The compassion of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    I know you're not lecturing people. But that is the argument against any form of safety net. That people should just be responsible for themselves. This isn't the Wild West anymore nor should it be. If we want the Wild West then fine, corporations can hand back in all their tax incentives and deductions for raping the public and we can stop doing "interventions" overseas so that American industries can go in and get lucrative tax subsidized contracts to do reconstruction work or oil distribution.

    And, I don't have any neighbors making millions of dollars, do you? My neighbors probably pay a couple thousand (like, 5 or less) each April. They're on the higher side of middle class and all have homes and insurance. I don't see any of them being coerced out of anything. You make it sound like the taxman comes to a struggling family's house and beats them up until he gets a cut. Let's talk about who we're really talking about. Corporations and the wealthy and the upper middle class and above.

    Do you know, btw, any stable investments I can put money in where less than 3% of their costs go to administrative costs and bureaucracy and hedge fund manager paychecks? Cause I'll put the money there instead of SS, if you can guarantee it's not going to grab all the money and duck out to Switzerland or the Caymans and leave me broke. I doubt there is one, though.

    The idea that everything private runs better than everything government is just myth, Strike. Current events should be testament to that. Enron, Citibank, Wall Street, Countrywide, mortgage lenders, WAMU, the CA energy contractors, Halliburton... If you want to talk about humans being corrupt and greedy, okay, but I don't see why you would draw a line that private is better than public in that regard. I see no evidence of it.
    And if we had let those fat cats fail they would've learned there lesson (hence the oligarchy) My neighbors are pastors and insurance salesman rather bland. Investment is filled with risk which is why you need to diversify and always be prepared. I do not hate the rich and powerful I hate when the government needs to bail them out. Me and you are the same on different ends of the spectrum. A large government lends itself to corruption and power grabs. Why make it bigger and bind the people to it?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  3. #3
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The compassion of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    And if we had let those fat cats fail they would've learned there lesson (hence the oligarchy) My neighbors are pastors and insurance salesman rather bland. Investment is filled with risk which is why you need to diversify and always be prepared. I do not hate the rich and powerful I hate when the government needs to bail them out. Me and you are the same on different ends of the spectrum. A large government lends itself to corruption and power grabs. Why make it bigger and bind the people to it?
    Are you serious? Are you saying we have local strongmen with a bit of cash taking over the government over and over occurs less in third world countries with weak governments than here?
    Koga no Goshi

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: The compassion of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    Are you serious? Are you saying we have local strongmen with a bit of cash taking over the government over and over occurs less in third world countries with weak governments than here?
    That is not a comparable example. The constitution enumerates very few powers for a reason. Simply because two governments happen to be small does not mean they will follow the same path.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  5. #5
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The compassion of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    That is not a comparable example. The constitution enumerates very few powers for a reason. Simply because two governments happen to be small does not mean they will follow the same path.
    The further back you go into our history, before all the "unnecessary and wasteful additions" to government that people rail about, you can still find as much oligarchical corruption and such as today. And people lived shorter and were less well off and their biggest hope in life was that their kids had only 1 bad harvest out of 5 instead of 2. I don't think anyone wants to seriously return to the days when the government did nothing but diplomacy and defense, and if they do, I think that a cush suburban life has completely alienated them from the reality of what such a society would be like.
    Koga no Goshi

    I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: The compassion of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    The further back you go into our history, before all the "unnecessary and wasteful additions" to government that people rail about, you can still find as much oligarchical corruption and such as today. And people lived shorter and were less well off and their biggest hope in life was that their kids had only 1 bad harvest out of 5 instead of 2. I don't think anyone wants to seriously return to the days when the government did nothing but diplomacy and defense, and if they do, I think that a cush suburban life has completely alienated them from the reality of what such a society would be like.
    I think one can thank the advancement of technology for the run of good harvests we have been having lately. The government screws you in the end. A necessary evil. I dont see how more power and more tax dollars solves anything. America should never follow Europe's lead in anything. We fought a war because of it. Not to mention people always point to countries like Norway and wonder why we cant be more like them. They dont realize we have 75 times the POP of Norway they red tape would be chrusing. I'd rather keep my money and take my chances. "cush suburban life"? Your Berkley is showing
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  7. #7
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: The compassion of socialism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    I think one can thank the advancement of technology for the run of good harvests we have been having lately. The government screws you in the end. A necessary evil. I dont see how more power and more tax dollars solves anything. America should never follow Europe's lead in anything. We fought a war because of it. Not to mention people always point to countries like Norway and wonder why we cant be more like them. They dont realize we have 75 times the POP of Norway they red tape would be chrusing. I'd rather keep my money and take my chances. "cush suburban life"? Your Berkley is showing
    I think not following a good idea just because Europe is doing it is dumb.

    And, I have always shown you respect Strike, so I would ask you not to make stupid assumptions about what I think or where I get my ideas based on where I went to school. But since my going to Berkeley apparently "disqualifies my credibility" on every conceivable topic, let me give you a little edification. The Cal Berkeley Republicans is the largest student group on campus. You need a 4.0+ GPA and at the time I applied, 1400ish on the old SAT system (max 1600) to get in, plus other considerations, they weighed the entrance exam more than any of the other UC's did. The school is predominantly Asian American; mostly conservative (socially and financially) academic minded Asian kids who put their heads down and go to class. The big majors are the MBA program and microcellcular biology-- a majority of the kids you will meet from Berkeley never even set foot in a polysci class or ethnic studies class or anything that might expose them to anything "radical." The "reputation" of Berkeley is much better suited today for a school like Eugene, Oregon or maybe Santa Cruz, and the idea that it's just some brainwashing leftie Che Guevara separatista academy is not only bigoted but outdated and uninformed. So I would thank you not to respond to me by throwing out a sentiment along the lines of "oh well yeah of COURSE you think that, you're from Berkeley", especially since I do not do that to you. I'm not ashamed to have attended what was at that time (I don't sit around checking rankings) the top public university in the United States nor do I feel that should have any bearing on what I say anymore than me saying "yeah well, stupid people come from Texas and they're all Republican so of course you'd say that."

    I didn't make that comment (about cush suburbans) at you individually... I think if people think going back to an unregulated Robber Baron period is a good thing then they are delusional or just have no conception of what a society like that would be like compared to what they are used to. It's just like people complaining all the time about city life and loving the great outdoors but do they want to go live there with no electricity and no running water 365 days a year? Hell no.
    Last edited by Koga No Goshi; 10-06-2008 at 05:12.
    Koga no Goshi

    I give my Nihon Maru to TosaInu in tribute.

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