The compassion of socialism.

[PanzerJaeger]

It becomes relevant though if the implied argument is that a private insurance system is better. It's not.

I'll grant you that an argument based on that using the US as an example would certainly be OT. Thats not the argument he made though.

Thanks for the kind words. She was horrified at the price tag but she had been completely unable to get up for a month already because of the fractured vertebrae. (That's what khyphoplasty is for, it's kinda like vertebrae superglue procedure.) The insurance company told her doctor that "the surgery was not warranted because more conservative measures should be exhausted first, such as wearing a back brace." A back brace don't fix a fractured bone in your spine.

That's terrible.

panzer,
Quote:
And what does the government reading emails have to do with.... well.. anything?

I have to explain it again? is it OK if I just copy and paste my previous post?

"if an american talks about "the ultimate affront to citizens" I can not help it.... If you make a volley, I will smash"

Poor form on your part. You don't like America or Americans? Great. Start a thread about it..

[Kadagar_AV]

All I see is anti-americanism thank you for playing.

Once again, I can see that you are indeed a great thinker.

*I didn't highlight anything this time, I will let people use their imagination*

Seriosly though...

A) Drawing conclusions of a political system from ONE incident in ONE country is... Showing that deep minds have neen involved in the process.

B)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I am no US basher... I am wayyyy more right-wing than most of sweden, i applaud a lot of things in the US, I have a great many friends over there...

However, when someone talks about socialistic states intruding on citizens, when they are from america who are about as intrusive as communist China, then I can not help but laugh.

It is funny, I have an old G.I. Joe (my heroes) comic... The characters talk about what is so bad about Russia, "The state tracks peoples communication" is mentioned as no. 1 thing... Hello Echelon:)

You have to find that ironic, no?

[Koga No Goshi]

Once again, I can see that you are indeed a great thinker.

*I didn't highlight anything this time, I will let people use their imaginaton*

Seriosly though...

A) Drawing conclusions of a political system from ONE incident in ONE country is... Showing that deep minds have neen involved in the process.

B)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I am no US basher... I am wayyyy more right-wing than most of sweden, i applaud a lot of things in the US, I have a great many friends over there...

However, when someone talks about socialistic states intruding on citizens, when they are from america who are about as intrusive as communist China, then I can not help but laugh.

It is funny, I have an old G.I. Joe (my heroes) comic... The characters talk about what is so bad about Russia, "The state tracks peoples communication" is mentioned as no. 1 thing... Hello Echelon:)

You have to find that ironic, no?

Thats actually one thing I like about the internet. It's tossing a lot of Europeans and Americans together in mixed environments. Fifteen, twenty years ago, people just bashed on anything Socialist like it was the absolutely worst run thing conceivable. But you would probably have a hard time convincing most Europeans that what they "really" want to do is privately pay for all thier own healthcare even if they can't afford it, and how terrible and awful their healthcare system is. That's basically what all Americans twentysomething or older grew up with being told over and over, that Europe was awful where you paid huge taxes and had SOCIALIST MEDICINE and had to wait 19 months in a queue to have a doctor look at your broken finger. I don't know anyone (personally) from Europe who thinks America's social systems are better.

[Strike For The South]

How does no safety net and no reliable healthcare help protect your family?

I plan to be a vigilant citizen. I plan to get health care and save excess money and not live beyond my means. God forbid something cataclysmic happens and even if it does I will look to my church or my friends not my government I refuse to give those bastards the satisfaction.

[Strike For The South]

Once again, I can see that you are indeed a great thinker.

*I didn't highlight anything this time, I will let people use their imagination*

Seriosly though...

A) Drawing conclusions of a political system from ONE incident in ONE country is... Showing that deep minds have neen involved in the process.

B)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I am no US basher... I am wayyyy more right-wing than most of sweden, i applaud a lot of things in the US, I have a great many friends over there...

However, when someone talks about socialistic states intruding on citizens, when they are from america who are about as intrusive as communist China, then I can not help but laugh.

It is funny, I have an old G.I. Joe (my heroes) comic... The characters talk about what is so bad about Russia, "The state tracks peoples communication" is mentioned as no. 1 thing... Hello Echelon:)

You have to find that ironic, no?

We are no longer talking about the article but the merits of socialism. I have already stated that I hate my government and they are an oligarchy. We seem to have different views on government. Do you want to add something?

[Koga No Goshi]

I plan to be a vigilant citizen. I plan to get health care and save excess money and not live beyond my means. God forbid something cataclysmic happens and even if it does I will look to my church or my friends not my government I refuse to give those bastards the satisfaction.

That sounds like the mentality of Wall Street until they needed a bailout. :) I'm not saying you're insincere Strike, but I think lecturing people about being more responsible, you really should have found a way to go to nightschool and get a better job, when their kid is dying, is rather cruel.

[CountArach]

As little as possible.

In an educated society the robber barons would not happen I will also play devils advocate and say the robber barons perpetuated the USA onto the world stage.

An educated society... without public education, right?

[Strike For The South]

That sounds like the mentality of Wall Street until they needed a bailout. :) I'm not saying you're insincere Strike, but I think lecturing people about being more responsible, you really should have found a way to go to nightschool and get a better job, when their kid is dying, is rather cruel.

Im not lecturing people at all. Everyones family has problems everyones family has tough times. But giving more power to the government and taking away more of you neighbors money is not the answer especially when its coerced and especially when the government is notoriously bad at solving anything in the first place.

[Strike For The South]

An educated society... without public education, right?

states problem. Very little I learned has come through the public education system anyway and that is why I majoring in History and minoring in 2ndary education and Spanish. Dont assume Dundee

[Redleg]

Wikipedia does not know all, Redleg.

LOL your beginning to sound like someone else.

One definition of socialism is indeed the economic one, as quoted above. But the idea that everyone should be helped by society at large is also socialist in conception.

Actually socialism doesnt talk about helping everyone at large, it states something about equality - which is what the word mentioned in the second part of my post refers to. But I will play along provide a source that states socialism is about compassion for everyone.

And nobody should be forced to pay for treatment that is ordinaraly subsidised, due to paying for extra treatment, its ridiculous.

Your at the mercy of the state on certain things with socialized medicine, personally I dont know which system is better or worse, both have some major faults that must be retificied if a true compassionate system is to be

[Redleg]

Personal responsibility only ever applies if you're poor. Period.

Incorrect. Personal responsiblity applies to all. Now if your arguement is about how the legal system applies that standard then you have to actually begin to demonstrate it. A good examble is in the bail out thread.


Now socialized medicine has an element of personal responsibility also. Just like any other system, all have the personal responsiblity to insure they take care of their body and therefor their health. You can not give that responsiblity to the state had remain free.

[Kadagar_AV]

Thats actually one thing I like about the internet. It's tossing a lot of Europeans and Americans together in mixed environments. Fifteen, twenty years ago, people just bashed on anything Socialist like it was the absolutely worst run thing conceivable. But you would probably have a hard time convincing most Europeans that what they "really" want to do is privately pay for all thier own healthcare even if they can't afford it, and how terrible and awful their healthcare system is. That's basically what all Americans twentysomething or older grew up with being told over and over, that Europe was awful where you paid huge taxes and had SOCIALIST MEDICINE and had to wait 19 months in a queue to have a doctor look at your broken finger. I don't know anyone (personally) from Europe who thinks America's social systems are better.

QFT

I will share a story from "socialist Austria".

I have a friend who just had a REALLY bad break up... basicly, he moved to Austria to live together with his girlfriend (an austrian)... He quit his job in Sweden, he sells his apartment.

5 days after he gets here, she breaks up with him.

He was in shock, did not eat the whole day, only drank vodka and smoked weed...

Now, to set something straight, my friend is normally the most responcible person ever, he never msoked weed, and he drinks very moderatly... However, the situation was.........

I helped him pack his things and stuff, and then we went out on the town to get him something to eat.

He fainted, totally passed out on the street. Suddenly he just crashed down, not breathing.

I called an ambulance and did some CPR (learned it in the army).

The medics was there within 5 minutes, they noted he was dehydrated, and they gave him an infusion...



Cost: 0€



How much would that bad breakup have costed in the US? Or some other capitalistic state?

When I was in the US, I hurt my ribs... I knew the injury was not that bad, however, the ambulance my friends called insisted I would go to the hospital and see the doctor, to get X-ray and stuff...

I was fine, just had a small crack on the ribbs, and got some pain-dampening pills...

I had pay what I earn in 5 months for an X-ray and some pain relievers...

So, basicly, I think europe has a better system than the US.

[Redleg]

I live in a socialistic state... Contrary to YOUR country we can not be jailed without evidence, the state does not have the right to read our E-mail traffic...

Care to explain again why capitalism is better?

And also, comparing contrys and ideologies is two different things...

I went along with the charade only to please the VERY WELL THOUGHT OUT ruleset of this topic...

The national government is not a capitalism - its a Republic, as noticed with the Bail out package you can not claim anylonger that the US Government is a Capitalistic enterprise.

[Koga No Goshi]

Im not lecturing people at all. Everyones family has problems everyones family has tough times. But giving more power to the government and taking away more of you neighbors money is not the answer especially when its coerced and especially when the government is notoriously bad at solving anything in the first place.

I know you're not lecturing people. But that is the argument against any form of safety net. That people should just be responsible for themselves. This isn't the Wild West anymore nor should it be. If we want the Wild West then fine, corporations can hand back in all their tax incentives and deductions for raping the public and we can stop doing "interventions" overseas so that American industries can go in and get lucrative tax subsidized contracts to do reconstruction work or oil distribution.

And, I don't have any neighbors making millions of dollars, do you? My neighbors probably pay a couple thousand (like, 5 or less) each April. They're on the higher side of middle class and all have homes and insurance. I don't see any of them being coerced out of anything. You make it sound like the taxman comes to a struggling family's house and beats them up until he gets a cut. Let's talk about who we're really talking about. Corporations and the wealthy and the upper middle class and above.

Do you know, btw, any stable investments I can put money in where less than 3% of their costs go to administrative costs and bureaucracy and hedge fund manager paychecks? Cause I'll put the money there instead of SS, if you can guarantee it's not going to grab all the money and duck out to Switzerland or the Caymans and leave me broke. I doubt there is one, though.

The idea that everything private runs better than everything government is just myth, Strike. Current events should be testament to that. Enron, Citibank, Wall Street, Countrywide, mortgage lenders, WAMU, the CA energy contractors, Halliburton... If you want to talk about humans being corrupt and greedy, okay, but I don't see why you would draw a line that private is better than public in that regard. I see no evidence of it.

[Strike For The South]

anecdotes do not make a very good case. Neither does saying "He drank allot till he died but he was responsible" Hell Im responsible to but If I go out tomorrow and drink 4 bottles of vodka in an hour Im not going to think "Hey Ive built up enough responsibility credits I can do this"

[Redleg]

I think you are confusing Socialism and Communism, Strike. I don't know where this component of "the state controls your life and tells you what to do" comes into the discussion. I just think we all have a common stake in the common welfare of our country and that the individualistic free market attitude of "get as much as possible while paying the least back in as possible" is not good, and is less than forgiveable in the richest nation on earth if it means people lose their homes because of cancer (not because of reckless spending or whatever.)

Again you don't lose your house because of cancer. One has to look at the complete picture. Consumer debt and the loss of income that is associated with a bad health condition is one of the main causes of bankruptcy. Again look at the figures of raising bankruptcy in even socialized medicine nations where loss of income from a severe illness are also increasing

[Strike For The South]

I know you're not lecturing people. But that is the argument against any form of safety net. That people should just be responsible for themselves. This isn't the Wild West anymore nor should it be. If we want the Wild West then fine, corporations can hand back in all their tax incentives and deductions for raping the public and we can stop doing "interventions" overseas so that American industries can go in and get lucrative tax subsidized contracts to do reconstruction work or oil distribution.

And, I don't have any neighbors making millions of dollars, do you? My neighbors probably pay a couple thousand (like, 5 or less) each April. They're on the higher side of middle class and all have homes and insurance. I don't see any of them being coerced out of anything. You make it sound like the taxman comes to a struggling family's house and beats them up until he gets a cut. Let's talk about who we're really talking about. Corporations and the wealthy and the upper middle class and above.

Do you know, btw, any stable investments I can put money in where less than 3% of their costs go to administrative costs and bureaucracy and hedge fund manager paychecks? Cause I'll put the money there instead of SS, if you can guarantee it's not going to grab all the money and duck out to Switzerland or the Caymans and leave me broke. I doubt there is one, though.

The idea that everything private runs better than everything government is just myth, Strike. Current events should be testament to that. Enron, Citibank, Wall Street, Countrywide, mortgage lenders, WAMU, the CA energy contractors, Halliburton... If you want to talk about humans being corrupt and greedy, okay, but I don't see why you would draw a line that private is better than public in that regard. I see no evidence of it.

And if we had let those fat cats fail they would've learned there lesson (hence the oligarchy) My neighbors are pastors and insurance salesman rather bland. Investment is filled with risk which is why you need to diversify and always be prepared. I do not hate the rich and powerful I hate when the government needs to bail them out. Me and you are the same on different ends of the spectrum. A large government lends itself to corruption and power grabs. Why make it bigger and bind the people to it?

[Koga No Goshi]

Again you don't lose your house because of cancer. One has to look at the complete picture. Consumer debt and the loss of income that is associated with a bad health condition is one of the main causes of bankruptcy. Again look at the figures of raising bankruptcy in even socialized medicine nations where loss of income from a severe illness are also increasing

This is a distinction without meaning. Arguing that the free market is better because the sick person has the mortgage, normal bills, AND their medical bills to pay instead of just the first two is a very weak position.

[Koga No Goshi]

And if we had let those fat cats fail they would've learned there lesson (hence the oligarchy) My neighbors are pastors and insurance salesman rather bland. Investment is filled with risk which is why you need to diversify and always be prepared. I do not hate the rich and powerful I hate when the government needs to bail them out. Me and you are the same on different ends of the spectrum. A large government lends itself to corruption and power grabs. Why make it bigger and bind the people to it?

Are you serious? Are you saying we have local strongmen with a bit of cash taking over the government over and over occurs less in third world countries with weak governments than here?

[Kadagar_AV]

anecdotes do not make a very good case. Neither does saying "He drank allot till he died but he was responsible" Hell Im responsible to but If I go out tomorrow and drink 4 bottles of vodka in an hour Im not going to think "Hey Ive built up enough responsibility credits I can do this"

So... if a normaly controlled person gets into a very unusual situation, and it ends with him being hurt (by himself) than he is to blame?

Again, this is the most church-going-super-nice-guy ever...

he up once, cause of the circumstances. Should he then also lose his house to pay for the bill?



Again, I dont advocate free healthcare for people who do NOT deserve it... like, again, fat people with heart problems or heroinists.

However, I believe the states responcibility is to look after the citizens. As long as the citizens honour the state.

[Redleg]

So... if a normaly controlled person gets into a very unusual situation, and it ends with him being hurt (by himself) than he is to blame?

Again, this is the most church-going-super-nice-guy ever...

he up once, cause of the circumstances. Should he then also lose his house to pay for the bill?



Again, I dont advocate free healthcare for people who do NOT deserve it... like, again, fat people with heart problems or heroinists.

However, I believe the states responcibility is to look after the citizens. As long as the citizens honour the state.

Okay playing the devil's advocate - your friend actually committed personal abuse of his body - so why should the state have to pay for his health condition that he brought on himself from his behavior?

[Koga No Goshi]

Okay playing the devil's advocate - your friend actually committed personal abuse of his body - so why should the state have to pay for his health condition that he brought on himself from his behavior?

Because the long-term benefit to the state in having a healthy, non bankrupt citizenry able to work and produce outweighs the precarious hazards of someone who might do something unwise or have bad health issues. The argument that wasteful people will run around bankrupting the system is weak given that a) people are doing precisely that right now in our "free system" because they have to go to a taxpayer subsidized emergency room for treatment if they can't afford it b) people pay more in tax/healthcare than the actual cost because of all the poeple who can't pay anyway c) it has failed to bankrupt European countries having socialized medicine.

[Kadagar_AV]

Okay playing the devil's advocate - your friend actually committed personal abuse of his body - so why should the state have to pay for his health condition that he brought on himself from his behavior?

Because humans from time to time error... even law-abiding ones?

Again, third time, there is a difference between up once, and having something as a habit.

If you have something as a habit, that hurts you, you are to blame.

If you however try to live a good life, but get dealt bad cards, the state should help.

I am GLAD my taxmoney went to helping him. Would not you be? Could not you be in the same situation once?

[Koga No Goshi]

I would also add, Redleg, that it sounds like some of your position is based on the idea of "who deserves healthcare."

I would submit that someone working two jobs who still can't afford a grand a month for health insurance who gets sick, deserves it every bit as much, if not more, than some jerkoff born rich who does coke everyday of his life from the time he's 17 but never worries about how he will pay for his healthcare.

If the argument of "what's fair" comes into play, again, the free market doesn't win. Because it's not based on what's fair, it's based on who can afford it.

[seireikhaan]

My apologies for the troll. However...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This thread is perhaps the single greatest joke of a thread I've seen in a long while here in the backroom. "Socialism=teh evilz" vs "leave poor socialism alone, it never did nothin'!" mixed with snide personal insults. Brilliant.

[InsaneApache]

I live in a socialistic state... Contrary to YOUR country we can not be jailed without evidence, the state does not have the right to read our E-mail traffic...

Care to explain again why capitalism is better?

And also, comparing contrys and ideologies is two different things...

I went along with the charade only to please the VERY WELL THOUGHT OUT ruleset of this topic...

Where I live the government can do all those things.

Ministers are considering spending up to £12 billion on a database to monitor and store the internet browsing habits, e-mail and telephone records of everyone in Britain.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4882600.ece

and then there's 42 days detention without charge...

The Terrorism Act 2006 increased the pre-charge detention limit from 14 to 28 days. The imminent abandonment of the proposal to extend this further to 42 days comes after mounting criticism from senior figures in the fight against terrorism.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4887653.ece

So apart from locking us up without charges being brought (although thank god for the House of Lords), spying on our calls and mails......

[Koga No Goshi]

Where I live the government can do all those things.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4882600.ece

and then there's 42 days detention without charge...



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4887653.ece

So apart from locking us up without charges being brought (although thank god for the House of Lords), spying on our calls and mails......

The U.S. is rolling back its civil liberties, and the U.K. apparently is as well from what you say.

The point was, none of this had anything to do with socialism.

[Kadagar_AV]

The U.S. is rolling back its civil liberties, and the U.K. apparently is as well from what you say.

The point was, none of this had anything to do with socialism.

That is kind of the point;)

[InsaneApache]

The point was, none of this had anything to do with socialism.

Our current government, The Labour Party.

The Labour Party grew out of the trade union movement and socialist political parties of the 19th century, and continues to describe itself as a party of democratic socialism.

[Redleg]

Because humans from time to time error... even law-abiding ones?

Again, third time, there is a difference between up once, and having something as a habit.

If you have something as a habit, that hurts you, you are to blame.

If you however try to live a good life, but get dealt bad cards, the state should help.

I am GLAD my taxmoney went to helping him. Would not you be? Could not you be in the same situation once?

This arguement seems slightly hypocritical given your comments concerning the individual who is fat. For instance what about the individual who is fat because of a thyroid condition?