One of my best games ever: Early Turks

[Knight of the Rose]

Hi all,

Just wanted you to know that if you want a challenge, then I can vote for Turks in Early. Especially if you screw up in the beginning of the campaign just like I did. I went to war against the byz, to avoid them becoming too strong, but just as things were smoothing out, the eggies bribed a stack! After that, the byz and eggies allied, to the point where the byz actually broke my siege of one of the eggies' forts, and returned control of the province to Egypt. Every time I got back on my feet, I was knocked down again: First I got mercenaries to help me survive, but they emptied my coffers. Then I got rid of them after winning battles and in the same turn was swarmed by the byz. I painstainkingly pushed them back, but in the meantime the eggies had reinforced their borders. Then my sultan dies,, and his lousy heir faces both invasion and civil war. Thought the rebels were quite few, the one stack that did rebel was my battlehardened cavalryheavy stack with all my best troops! The only thing that kept me in the game was an eggie invasion that meant a three-way-battle in Rum, where the turk rebels attacked and destroyed a superior eggie host, and my poor remnants (with an important regiment of peasants making up half my troops!) could scoop up the straggeling survivors. After a little building and a couple of lucky battles, I sort of thought I made it. Then I get the message that the french has launched a crusade towards my province. Oh my...

So sometimes the campaign is easy, sometimes you get a handfull. You can blitz in the beginning and then cruise towards dominion, but if you turtle a little, then you can get some interesting challenges.

All the best,

/KotR

[caravel]

Yes, in my extremely biased opinion the Turks are the best faction in the game and can be one of the most challenging.

For the early campaign the strategy is simple: Wipe out the Egyptians ASAP and ignore the Byzantine for a while. The latter should not attack for many years which will give you the time to work on removing the former - which doesn't take too long. The Byzantine will never accept an alliance at the start of an early campaign, whereas the Egyptians may do. This means precisely nothing and the likely result is that the Egyptians will stab you in the back at the first opportunity.

After I've removed the Egyptians I tend to establish my power base from Rum to Egypt, the first defensive choke point and avoid treading on the toes of the Almohads for a while - and maybe train some Bedouin Camels! There is much potential for trading in that region and the income will allow you to build decent armies. Fleets should be established to protect at least all of your coastlines and cover the Byzantine coastlines.

My early Turkish armies are usually made of a backbone of Saracen Infantry, Futtuwa and Turcoman Foot supported by Armenia Heavy Cavalry, Ghazi Infantry, and the invaluable Turcoman Horse. I usually have a system of invasion where my attacking force (cavalry based) invades the province and takes it, then falls back and my main defensive force (Saracen and hybrid based) moves in.

In general terms the Saracens and hybrid units act mainly as a defence force, which is needed when the Horde arrive. In offensive battles the Turcoman Horse and AHC are much more important. The Turcoman are used to wear the enemy down and break their morale. The AHC then charge and destroy the broken enemy force. Timing and the taking up of flanking positions is important as if you don't tire, demoralise and wear down the enemy force first you will likely lose a lot more men or worse still lose the battle.

Once you're strong enough you should hit the Byzantine before they get any stronger. I usually go for Trebizond, Anatolia and Lesser Armenia first (cutting off Georgia) then dig in and get ready for some counter attacks. This is where the Saracens come in. Without them to absorb the Kataphraktos charges and the Ghazi to charge them in the flank you will struggle to hold onto these provinces and take huge losses. It is a good idea to attack these three provinces at once as it usually causes the Byzantine to divide their forces and delivers a blow to their income. The next move is Nicaea and Georgia - the second and arguably most important choke point, though holdng on to Trebizond is more important. If you were to lose it again at this point the Byzantine can walk through your internal provinces including Rum and Armenia. Once Nicaea is yours it's a matter of delivering the final push for Constantinople the final choke point. Once this province is taken you have a strong defensive region with a good income controlled by three choke points.

In the high era once Janissaries are available, Janissary Infantry can replace your other hybrid units. Janissary Heavy Infantry can also replace units such as Ghazi as flankers and Saracens when attacking cavalry. Though you may still need to train/keep some Saracens as a low cost "spear wall" for defensive battles (you don't want your expensive JHI up front as cannon fodder being shot at).

[Martok]

Yep, the Turks in Early are absolutely one of the more challenging factions in vanilla MTW/VI. I don't play as them very often, but they're usually pretty tough when I do. Since you have no choice but to go to war with the Eggies and/or the Byz if you want to expand, it definitely makes for an interesting campaign.

(I've just never been that fond of them due to their large number of mounted missile units. I should probably just get over it, but some habits are hard to break. )

[caravel]

Yep, the Turks in Early are absolutely one of the more challenging factions in vanilla MTW/VI. I don't play as them very often, but they're usually pretty tough when I do. Since you have no choice but to go to war with the Eggies and/or the Byz if you want to expand, it definitely makes for an interesting campaign.

(I've just never been that fond of them due to their large number of mounted missile units. I should probably just get over it, but some habits are hard to break. )

Ahem, they have Turcoman Horse, Sipahis of the Porte and vanilla HAs. That's the only mounted missile units they have. In fact they've been condemned as ahistorical in the past for not having enough mounted missile units and too many foot units. It is quite possible to play the Turks without relying too heavily on THA and HA. In Early you can make use of much the same units as the Egyptians with only a few exceptions.

[Martok]

Ahem, they have Turcoman Horse, Sipahis of the Porte and vanilla HAs. That's the only mounted missile units they have. In fact they've been condemned as ahistorical in the past for not having enough mounted missile units and too many foot units. It is quite possible to play the Turks without relying too heavily on THA and HA. In Early you can make use of much the same units as the Egyptians with only a few exceptions.

Yeah, I know that's all they have for mounted missiles....but it *feels* like a lot when I play them.

That, and it seems like that's about all you can train at first, and so I wind up with relative hordes of them early on, which bugs me to no end.

[bozewolf]

The only "problem" imo with the Turks is that despite their fun and challenging starting position, once you destroy the Egyptians and have the Byzzies on the back foot, it's pretty much smooth sailing from there. Like Caravel said, you have a strong base with many potential high income provinces completely sealed off by only three regions and a strong fleet. You can sit on your butt for two hundred years, so to speak.


Out of the three Muslim factions the Turks are definitely my favorite, though. I always thought they have more character. Their unit roster appeals to me as well.

[Roark]

Caravel's hit the nail on the head. Turks dominate.

My recommendation for decent Turk players is to solidify Asia Minor, then go on a "tour" through Christian Europe in the High era with your Elites just for fun, razing and moving on. You get to face the best that Christianity has to offer and demonstrate the superiority of the mighty Turcoman Horse whirlwind. The Armenian Heavies and Ghazis break 'em, and the Muwahids and Turcoman Horse can sweep them up.

[seireikhaan]

Eh. For whatever reason, I find the Turks to be relatively easy. Taking the eggies out early is not a difficult task at all; indeed, if you wish to be cheap, the game sets you up for an easy sultan-ransom in the first few turns of the game. The Byz can give you trouble, but that's what saracen infantry+ribats are for. They can take a boatload of punishment, giving plenty of time to gang up the Kataphraktoi with your cheap as hell ghazis. Of course, by the time you're taking the Byz on, ideally you'd have a navy set up to extend far enough to take the byz navies out completely, and ideally stretching a little further, into the adriatic, so you can still pull in a nifty trade income. So you should be able to span camels, ghazis, and saracens like crazy and "horde" the byzantines better(and better commanded, in all likelyhood) troops, with some decent generalling. Of course, this could get horribly screwed up if the byz backstab you before you can set yourself up properly, but as long as the eggies are out, you should be able to focus you're full might on them and wear them down.

Once I get the "big triangle"-aka Georgia, Constantinople, and Egypt(though I generally like to take Greece and Bulgaria if possible as well, even if it means I have an extra province to defend), its ridiculous. The income is so insane, its not even funny. Not to mention that having the magic province(Constantinople), seems to ensure you're royal line can easily become insanely powerful. I had one memorable game in particular where my royal line was literally a manufacturing line for 7, 8 and 9 star generals. So, to avoid getting bored, I'll intentionally load up my eastern provinces just to try and get the Golden Horde to hit my harder.

[gaijinalways]

I found the turks difficult the two times I tried them, but that was a long time ago (can't play any games recently, my pc doesn't allow the games to play after installing, wah). I seem to remember getting ganged up in vanilla expert by the byz and the eggies early, which made life interesting.

[caravel]

Like makaikhaan I also find the Turks stupidly easy these days. The trade income is enormous. Though the same argument can apply to any faction that dominates the region such as the Almohds, Egyptians, Byzantines etc.

To make the campaign more challenging I tend to only conquer as far as Tripoli and Leave the Egyptians with Palestine, Egypt, Arabia and Sinai. I then turn on the Byzantines sooner and try to take and hold Lesser Armenia and Georgia.

[Caliburn]

I think that the Early Turks are challenging in the beginning. With any horse archers and camels they can counter both the Egyptians and the Byzantines. +4 armoured Kataphraktoi can be nasty, but weakened by Turkomans and mobbed by Camels they're not that bad. The Egyptian Peasant Horde can pretty much be taken out by the same combination - the Turkoman Horse wipe enemy camels out pretty quickly after all, and then its mostly peasants and Royals... Or with a very stable Saracen/Turkoman combination. But which to attack first?

I like Turkoman Horse, they're quick, and even with their low morale they do their job ok. I like Turkopoles better, because they won't get smashed if a couple of horses gets stuck in an enemy formation (good defence), and won't rout quite so easily, but of course they're available only for the Catholics, which is sad. +2 Turkoman Horse with religion upgrades are still very useful.

A cheap javelin unit would be great for taking out those nasty Kataphraktoi and Steroid Vikings very early in the campaign. Can't complain with the unit roster, though, I much prefer the "original" setup where not every second faction had a javelin unit (I'm talking to you, Spanish Javelins and Slav Javelinmen!).

Later in the campaign I usually still build a pretty basic Muslim Infantry Tank, it's faster and less complicated to beat enemies than with a cool Camel/HA combo. Saracens Muwahids, Futuwwa, Ghazi, Armenian Heavy Cavalry and a couple of Turkoman Horse for harassment/lcav role, probably with some Saharan or Steppe Cavalry. After taking the two moneymachines the position is even too good, easily defendable and easy to start expanding, which is kind of the same problem as with Byzantium and Egypt as well. At least the beginning is more challenging.

[Knight of the Rose]

I've played the turks several times before, and havn't found them to be particulary difficult in the past. But this time the alliance between the byz and eggies coupled with the fact that I waited until the eggies had build a strong army made for a tough game. If you want it easier you should let the byz wander into the steppes while you take over Egypt.

Somewhat ironic that I - of all people - also underestimated the might of camels in the desert. This, together with joint invasions and civil war really proved a challange. I think, now that the middle east is somewhat secure, it will be smooth sailing, once the crusade has been dealt with. Which might or might not be easy - usually they are not to big a problem... (famous last words)

/KotR

[caravel]

As the Turks you can send Hassan ibn Sabbā and his becamel'd legions of death against Egypt. Don't worry about the Nubian Spearmen. Just charge them from the flank and the whole lot will be routing. It's a good idea to target and rout his peasants first in any given battle, this will demoralise the other nearby non elite units. In the past I've beaten Egypt using the Sultan's ransom method using only Vanilla HA's and camels. I've also beaten the Byzantine using much the same with an additional few AHC and vanilla spearmen, so it can be done.

[Caliburn]

Yea, and sometimes you are forced to rely on the initial types (normal HA, camels, basic spears) when the two factions force you intto a two front war very early on...

Even noob spearmen break while being charged with the mighty camel, especially when you give them a helping hand with an arrow or two.

[Haccapelite]

I have a rather interesting campaing going with the Turks(or would be going, haven't played in a while) and I really have to say that for me it has offered some serious challenge right from the beginning to the 1300-something, where I currently am. Reading the posts in this thread I now see that I chose the harder way in the beginning, attacking the Byz before the Eggies. Well, at least that made my game really interesting and I had some very tough battles. I have to say that beating kats with plain spears and camels ain't easy After conquering the Asia minor I focused my attention towards the Eggies, and managed to beat them down with rather little effort.
Now I hold the north Africa, Asia minor, the Italian peninsula, Spain and a couple of provinces in south France. I have been taking the game rather slowly to keep the game challenging longer, and it sure has worked: the Novgorods(!!) have built a huge empire, roughly the same size as mine. I just have to return to that campaing some day and wage war against them, it should be rather interesting...
I absolutely agree that the Turkish have a very interesting unit roster, and I just love Janissary heavy infantry. 4 JHI, some AHC and Turcoman HA is a kickass-army, and I haven't yet met anything capable of stopping them With the constant fighting going on I have also gained some very good generals, currently I have two 9-star generals and one 8-starred one. The trade income available to the Turkish is also huge, my annual income is around 30000 florins, and I have atleast 2 ships in every sea region.

[Vantek]

Turks are my favourite as well, mostly because they're the only challenging faction with the superior muslim music

[cambovenzi]

similar to what caravel said, i also found it quite easy to wipe out the egyptians first.