Concert of Europe

[SoFarSoGood]

"150,000 men are ready to invade the Ottoman Empire + the 15,000 men left from the 1st attempt at guerrilla warfare (which is still ongoing) and the conventional warfare." Could you clarify if these are irregulars/guerillas or Imperial (Austrian or Russian) please?

[King Jan III Sobieski]

"150,000 men are ready to invade the Ottoman Empire + the 15,000 men left from the 1st attempt at guerrilla warfare (which is still ongoing) and the conventional warfare." Could you clarify if these are irregulars/guerillas or Imperial (Austrian or Russian) please?

Russian and a mix.

[Arjos]

Russia will attend the Danish-Prussian conference, Admiral Yevfimy Putyatin will be His Imperial Majesty's emissary.

Also Russia will compete in the Military Machines category at the Viennese Grand Fair: Lieutenant General of artillery Konstantin Konstantinov, will require a space of at least 6 km radius. He will present his achievements in rocketry and measurement of projectiles' flight speed.

OoC: Jan, as for diplomacy with NPCs nations, should we send you PMs or just send our messages in the orders PM?

[SoFarSoGood]

Where are 10,000 Turkish troops from Sarejevo? Have they moved south or are they still the in the area?

[Franconicus]

I am back!

OOC:
1) Do we have alreday new numbers, income, military, cost for ships etc?
2) How are casualties handled? For example, if I would loose about 10,000 men in combat. Can I simply order 10,000 new ones. Does it cost extra money. Does it take time to train them? Is there a penalty on experience?

[Franconicus]

His Royal Majesty is back and condamns the violance on the Balkans. You should all follow His example and relax in the sun - instead of spreading blood.
We urge all partues to stop fighting. We also urge the Conference to get together to decide about the future of the Balkans. And the Ottomans to follow this decision. Further more We demand to English to stop their support fot the Turks. Her weapons will be used against soldiers of the Big Five - that is hardly acceptable.

We warn all parties to desturb the trade on the Eastern Med. France will do everything that is necessary to protect free trade there.

[Greyblades]

Her weapons will be used against soldiers of the Big Five - that is hardly acceptable.

Nor is Russia's war, yet I see france merely urges a ceasefire, to make demands of my government to stop supplying a valuable trading partner while being so lenient to blatant conquest strikes me as questionable. The concert was formed to stop wars of conquest in europe, was it not?

As I said:

I want written assurances that Russia won't control any part of the Balkans or Turkey after the fact; no annexations, no protectorates, the Balkans must become free autonomous christian states free of any obligation to anyone but themselves. The Ottoman mainland must be left alone. I also want written assurances from the other members of the Concert that they will enforce the conditions I supplied with millitary force should Russia take any territory in the Balkans. Finally I want those assurances written and sealed at the Schleswig and Holestein congress with the Danes as witness.

These are not unfair terms and from what they have said I see no legitimate reason russia would take issue with it. If russia accepts I will relent.

[Franconicus]

France does not agree with the English position. Keeping the Balkans to the Turks is unacceptable. The Turks will not be able to stop the ambitions of Nationalists, Seperatists. The Turks are simply too week for it and I do not see any good if the concert tries to help the Turks keeping the rule over Christian people.
On the other hand, a retreat of the Turks with the formation of new national states is not an option as well. New national states would only fire nationalism all over Europe and the Balkans would still be a place of trouble.
Even though France is not glad to say this - and does not follow any egoistic goals - We have to say that there has to be a strong power to control the Balkans and to guarantee order. France understands the concerns of England very well, but We thing that dividing the Balkans would create a stable balance on the Balkans.
Therefore, France supports Austira and Russia. However, it wishes that the war is stopped until there is a mandate from the concert. Further more all of the Big Five should urge the Turks to leave the Balkans. The Turks cannot win and a defeat will weaken their position at Asia Minor, which is not in the interest of the concert.
We think - and propably England agrees - that Konstantinople and the Straits are the most sensible issue here. The status quo should not be touched without a decision of the concert - and in this case We think all of the five will have to agree.

[Arjos]

Russia warned the Sultan to leave the Balkans and recognize the Concert's authority, but was refused. As We see it, the ram has touched the wall, We could wait for an official mandate, but We have tactical concerns: delaying any further will only help the Turks and prolong the war.
The Straits under islamic rule are untollerable, the most sacred ground of Constantinople must be christian. We understand their economical and strategical importance, so We desire to set a network of Free Cities there, under the Concert's protection.

Czar Nikolai

[SoFarSoGood]

Gentlemen it seems to me, perhaps naively, that the positions of all you three are NOT so far apart:

France: "Keeping the Balkans to the Turks is unacceptable"

England: "I want written assurances that Russia won't control any part of the Balkans or Turkey after the fact"

Russia: "Sultan to leave the Balkans"

Presumably Europe is not "the Ottoman mainland" which "must be left alone" and nor can that truly be said of Constantinople. So in fact all of you tacitly accept an Ottoman withdrawal from the Balkans.

The question of what happens to the Balkan lands once the Turks have given them up seems to be the main difference with France arguing that "New national states would only fire nationalism all over Europe" while England demands "the Balkans must become free autonomous christian states free of any obligation to anyone but themselves". With all due respect though Gentlemen isn't a decision about the future of the Balkan states should the Turks withdraw... premature? You are fighting over a cake which has not been cooked.

The Kaiser has, perhaps temporarily, occupied Belgrade and Sarajevo. We are willing to await the Concerts agreement on larger matters but as long as these areas are in our care we insist that we retain the right to take any such actions as we deem necessary to maintain public order.

[Greyblades]

The way I see it russia's stated motiviation is a blatant falacy, the Tzar's conviction is fake simply for the fact that the last time he tried he ran away the second he approached the city walls, the mask of conviction he currently totes would not ever have allowed such an act. I do not trust them to act in the interests of the christians in the balklans and I see thier actions as little more than european conquest, something we formed the concert to stop. Now if the rest of the concert is so hell bent on removing the turks that is fine by me but to just replace the ottoman empire with the russian empire is unacceptable and france's insistance that I should let it happen unopposed is a damned insult.

Trust is earned gentlemen, and Russia lost mine in thier retreat from instanbul 20 years ago. I will not allow the balkans to be owned by such an empire and I do not trust Russia to not simply occupy the area and call it thiers, nor do I trust this "holy alliance" to act in opposition to should such happen without binding agreement. Greece worked out, the precident indicates that balkan states will work, I dont know about you but a promise is a small price to pay for the free straits.

[SoFarSoGood]

Russia has said "We desire to set a network of Free Cities there, under the Concert's protection." Is it that you just don't trust this Russian commitment?

[Greyblades]

That and I doubt that they will let them become free cities once they are occupied, I have no reason to trust anything they have to say on this issue and from comparing what I've heard from with what I have actually seen I expect Russia to occupy the balkans and declare them annexed if left unchecked by the threat of war with the concert, god knows it would take all four other members to shift them once dug in and that is not counting my doubts that my fellow concert members will so much as raise a finger against a fellow "Holy ally".

[Franconicus]

French newspaper quote English politicians: "france's insistance that I should let it happen unopposed is a damned insult. "
As a consequence of the public pressure the French Foreign Minister calls back the ambassader from London for consultations. The French ambassader is asked to explain the quotation.

[Greyblades]

OOC: Hrm, maybe that bit was a bit much, but still to sit back and let this happen requires trust and you lot dont have it, and to suggest I should do so without some form of insurance is absurd.

[Franconicus]

Let us summarize:

1) It is unacceptable, that the Turks keep the Balkans
2) It is unacceptable that there will be new national states
3) It is unacceptable, that Russia (and Austria?) get control over the Balkans.

Maybe this proposal could get the positions closer:
1) All guarantee the independency of Greece (should not be hard and then there would be at least one factor of stability)
2) Austria and Russia get the mandate to occupy the Balkans.
3) Konstantinopel gets a neutral status. It gets an autonom government and a garrison from neutral states (England, Prussia and France, 1/3 each).The stratits will remain open.
4) The concert guarantees the realm of the Turks on Asia Minor.

[Greyblades]

2) Austria and Russia get the mandate to occupy the Balkans.

Specify occupy please: how long and what happens after.

[SoFarSoGood]

Firstly there are five powers in the Concert. What are the views of Prussia?

Secondly France and England argue over regions that are, for the most part, in the Sultans possession. Do you suppose that the Sultan is inclined to vacate them peacefully? If not presumably you expect Russian and Austrian lives to be lost so that you can debate potential futures of regions which are now in the Sultans domain. With Turkish entrenchment in Iasi, Bucharest and Sofia many Russian lives will thrown away in a contest the result of which is by no means clear.

If it is the Concerts will that the Sultan depart these lands you will ask Austria and Russia to carry out your will. Austria will consider such a request if and when it is made but may ask for guarantees on Shleswig - Holstein and Saxony. Should this be the Concerts will who will pay the costs? If Austria and Russia were to carry the costs alone should we not be compensated in some way? Will you pay us to carry out your wishes?

Gentlemen you are arguing over 'maybes' and 'ifs'. Nor is within the power of France or England to deliver these things - should you deem them desirable. If you decide that this is what you want you should perhaps ask the Sultan first and then make a formal proposal to the Kaiser and Czar.

[SoFarSoGood]

As regards Belgrade and Sarajevo, which are currently under the Kaiser protection, may I remind you that there are "15,000 men left from the 1st attempt at guerrilla warfare (which is still ongoing)" some of which are in these regions. It is nobody's interests to have 'irregulars' disturbing civil harmony and trade so we reserve the right to act to bring about peace and order in the interests of the local population while they remain under the Kaisers protection.

[King Jan III Sobieski]

Deadline is next Saturday!

Some quick info. Italy supports some sort of partition and the Ottomans are sending another 35,000 men to this theater, mostly recruits however. Riots are breaking out over the Turkish Empire and their capital is being fortify with their best troops.

[SoFarSoGood]

Where are 10,000 Turkish troops from Sarejevo? Have they moved south or are they still the in the area?

[Arjos]

It is nobody's interests to have 'irregulars' disturbing civil harmony and trade so we reserve the right to act to bring about peace and order in the interests of the local population while they remain under the Kaisers protection.

Those men are Russians soldiers sent to disrupt the turkish supply lines etc, surely there's no need to shoot eachother :P
They will redirect their efforts with the main army joining in anyway...

OoC: Jan, as for diplomacy with NPCs nations, should we send you PMs or just send our messages in the orders PM?

OOC:
1) Do we have alreday new numbers, income, military, cost for ships etc?
2) How are casualties handled? For example, if I would loose about 10,000 men in combat. Can I simply order 10,000 new ones. Does it cost extra money. Does it take time to train them? Is there a penalty on experience?

Could we please get answers to these questions too?

[SoFarSoGood]

I was referring to the "15,000 men left from the 1st attempt at guerrilla warfare (which is still ongoing)". Your Cossack looters are currently in the Belgrade jail as we were told they had "marched there without orders from the Tzar". Looters acting without or against orders are looters and will not be tolerated.

[Franconicus]

"Specify occupy please: how long and what happens after."

Make a proposal!

Do we get more numbers (money etc?)

[Greyblades]

Firstly there are five powers in the Concert. What are the views of Prussia?

Secondly France and England argue over regions that are, for the most part, in the Sultans possession. Do you suppose that the Sultan is inclined to vacate them peacefully? If not presumably you expect Russian and Austrian lives to be lost so that you can debate potential futures of regions which are now in the Sultans domain. With Turkish entrenchment in Iasi, Bucharest and Sofia many Russian lives will thrown away in a contest the result of which is by no means clear.

If it is the Concerts will that the Sultan depart these lands you will ask Austria and Russia to carry out your will. Austria will consider such a request if and when it is made but may ask for guarantees on Shleswig - Holstein and Saxony. Should this be the Concerts will who will pay the costs? If Austria and Russia were to carry the costs alone should we not be compensated in some way? Will you pay us to carry out your wishes?

Gentlemen you are arguing over 'maybes' and 'ifs'. Nor is within the power of France or England to deliver these things - should you deem them desirable. If you decide that this is what you want you should perhaps ask the Sultan first and then make a formal proposal to the Kaiser and Czar.

To be frank, none of that is not my problem, I dislike the area being in ottoman hands but it is not in the people's interest to see the people trade one empire for another of even less repute and I will oppose any such action, if France, Prussia, Ausria and Russia want the balkans out of ottoman hands they will have to accept the region's self governence and thier independance under the protection of the concert or you will have to win your war with Britain supporting the Ottomans. Make the balkans protectorates of the concert if you wish but I will not see the area become just another russian province.

[Franconicus]

We are shocked by the words from London. Maybe just a mistranslation, we assume.
It is not the people's choice, which government they have. We all fought against this idea some years ago.

[SoFarSoGood]

We heartily agree with our English friends; we have no desire to see the Balkans become "just another russian province". The problem is that the English distrust of Russia may stop the fulfillment of the 'free Balkans' that England wishes to see and leave it in Ottoman hands. For our part we invite English, French and Prussian observers to Belgrade and/or Sarajevo where we shall lift military rule as soon as possible.

[Arjos]

I was referring to the "15,000 men left from the 1st attempt at guerrilla warfare (which is still ongoing)". Your Cossack looters are currently in the Belgrade jail as we were told they had "marched there without orders from the Tzar". Looters acting without or against orders are looters and will not be tolerated.

Of course, but those 15.000 men (which actually are 21.000+) aren't looters, but Baryatinsky's men :)

[SoFarSoGood]

They are "Russian and a mix". Of the 'mix' we speak.

[Franconicus]

We would need Austria and Russia to conquer and occupy these areas anyway.
In our view it is mandatory not to found new national states. Maybe we could find a solution like we used at Greece:
For a period of five years, there should be one part of the Balkans under the government of the Austrian Kaiser, another one under The Czar. However, they will not be part of Austria or Russia. Like Poland today.
After five years, the two monarch give the throne to one of their children, but not to their heir. These new monarch can rule, but the realms may never be united with the motherland. Konstatinopel gets under mandate of France, Prussia and England.