Jorg Haider is Dead

[ICantSpellDawg]

Jorg Haider is Dead

Any possibility that he was murdered by Strache's guys? It sounds crazy, but it seems like they are trying to re-enact a miniature Nazi accension, I wouldn't expect them to leave out the Night of the Long Knives.

Baseless rumor that I just came up with putting two and two together. Spread it around.

If I were the police, I would investigate this further. Haider was the more moderate voice of the Freedom party and recently ousted as leader by Strache. If I were a closet Nazi I would totally kill the recent competition once I got to the top.

[Big_John]

accidents happen.











sometimes......

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

First of all, these parties are hardly far-right. This is far right. This is not - and neither is this.

This is an important (and very sad, of course) event, and it will certainly be politically interesting. We shall see how it plays out.

[ICantSpellDawg]

First of all, these parties are hardly far-right. This is far right. This is not - and neither is this.

This is an important (and very sad, of course) event, and it will certainly be politically interesting. We shall see how it plays out.

I liked what I heard about Haider. I'm not as keen on Strache from what I understand of him. I am not Austrian or German, so my opinion isn't authoritative.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I liked what I heard about Haider. I'm not as keen on Strache from what I understand of him. I am not Austrian or German, so my opinion isn't authoritative.

I probably would have voted for one of those two parties if I was in Austria. I'm still unsure who to vote for here. I would love to have an FP or BZ here, but unfortunately we do not.

[PanzerJaeger]

A sad day, indeed. RIP

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
So long Jörg, say hi to Adolf.
.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

.
So long Jörg, say hi to Adolf.
.

[ICantSpellDawg]

.
So long Jörg, say hi to Adolf.
.

Nice. Haider must be in hell, eh?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The FPÖ and BZÖ are painted as right-wing extremists, but in reality...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria...onnaires,_2008

[Oleander Ardens]

Any possibility that he was murdered by Strache's guys? It sounds crazy, but it seems like they are trying to re-enact a miniature Nazi accension, I wouldn't expect them to leave out the Night of the Long Knives.

Baseless rumor that I just came up with putting two and two together. Spread it around.

If I were the police, I would investigate this further. Haider was the more moderate voice of the Freedom party and recently ousted as leader by Strache. If I were a closet Nazi I would totally kill the recent competition once I got to the top.

Frankly if you paint both as miniature Nazis than Mr. Bush would be with no shade of doubt a fascist agressor - and I have ever been an adamant opponent of their political agenda. That people come up with "nazi" every time a right-winged politician in the german-speaking world has success is indeed or a sign of stark lack in education and knowledge or of bad taste. Said that I really hope that Strache won't be able to collect the voters of Haider in the future - a vain hope I presume.

[Fragony]

come to think of it, no.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Org policy requests us not to make political statements about the recently deceased. I shall therefore simply give centre stage to our Austrian Freedom politician himself:

'WWII concentration camps are only punishment camps'
'The SS is a part of the German army that should be honoured'
'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'


Auf Wiedersehen, Jörg.

And indeed, by the standards of the Austrian far right Haider was still only a moderate, and a great hero to the hard-right, anti-EU, nationalist sentiment across Europe.

[Fragony]

Hmmmm.

[Tribesman]

What's a Jorg Haider ?

Its what you get when you breed from an S.A.stormtrooper and a female Hitler youth leader .

[KukriKhan]

I don't yet find word of the man's funeral, so let us observe a 72-hour moratorium on criticising his career, out of respect for his survivors.

Open season, therefore Tuesday, 14 October, 1200 GMT.

[JR-]

it is a shame he is gone from politics, because parties like his that effected the will of the electorate did more than anything to shine a spotlight on the poisonous conformist and PC nature of european politics.

[Kadagar_AV]

I did not vote for him in the last election, but he has my respect. At least he always told the truth as it was. I am sad he is gone, as he really made this country more aware of political issues.

RIP

[Fragony]

If what Luigi posted actually came from his mouth then we really don't need it, political correctness disgusts me but glorifying nazi's disgust me a whole lot more. Racism is an ugly thing that should never get in the way of the discussion we should be having.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Org policy requests us not to make political statements about the recently deceased. I shall therefore simply give centre stage to our Austrian Freedom politician himself:

'WWII concentration camps are only punishment camps'
'The SS is a part of the German army that should be honoured'
'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'

Or perhaps you could look at his actual policies instead of words, some of which were said almost twenty years ago? Sorry Louis, but the man is no neo-Nazi, no matter how hard you try to paint him as one.

[PanzerJaeger]

'WWII concentration camps are only punishment camps'

This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.

'The SS is a part of the German army that should be honoured'

This is true. The line drawn by the allies between the German Army and the SS is false. They were all German fighting men. There were honorable soldiers in both the Wehrmacht and the SS, as well as dishonorable ones.

'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'.

While the scale is much smaller, this is also fairly accurate. Thousands of Germans died in vicious state sponsored murders and concentration camps and it is hard to say the expulsion was not an ethnic cleansing.


Now then, were those three quotes smart things to say for a public figure? Of course not. I believe he apologized.

However, Louis, you must know that having family directly involved in a conflict can make it easier for one to see both sides. I certainly can see the German side of WW2. Most people - rightly or wrongly - refuse to look at the war from both perspectives. When your parents, or grandparents in my case, fought in it, you kind of have to.

Another example: Living in the South, most people understand where the leaders and soldiers of the Confederacy were coming from. Living in America, most people understand why Truman dropped the atomic bomb. However, I'm sure if you were to interview the family of former slaves or a resident of Nagasaki, their perspectives would be different.

My point is that Haider was in a unique position and I can understand why his perspective on the war was also unique. Condemning the man for three comments made over the course of several decades is probably not the best idea, especially considering that the political parties he headed were far from national socialist in nature.

[KarlXII]

This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.

"Punishment camps" seem to be more of an understatement, however.

This is true. The line drawn by the allies between the German Army and the SS is false. They were all German fighting men. There were honorable soldiers in both the Wehrmacht and the SS, as well as dishonorable ones.

The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.

While the scale is much smaller, this is also fairly accurate. Thousands of Germans died in vicious state sponsored murders and concentration camps and it is hard to say the expulsion was not an ethnic cleansing.

More of a revenge by the Soviets. And I cannot blame them. But trying to compare the Holocaust to this is plain silly.

However, Louis, you must know that having family directly involved in a conflict can make it easier for one to see both sides. I certainly can see the German side of WW2. Most people - rightly or wrongly - refuse to look at the war from both perspectives. When your parents, or grandparents in my case, fought in it, you kind of have to.

I also had grandparents who fought, both against the Soviets and Germans.

[ICantSpellDawg]

The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.

If you understood the SS-Totenkopfverbande you would know that it had a totally separate hierarchy from the Waffen-SS. The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht controlled the Waffen-SS, while the Nazi-party controlled the Totenkopfverband and Einsatzgruppen. The Waffen-SS was like the Marines and rarely engaged in the actual purges as the wehrmacht was against such things. Regular wehrmacht troops also engaged in purges to an extent, yet they are honored for their heroism. Waffen-SS sacrifice and heroism was amazing during world war two and, while they were part of an unacceptably de-humanizing war machine which deserves it's infamous title, they are often mis-judged by what the SS-Totenkopfverbande, Allgemiene-SS and Einsatzgruppen were directly responsible for - three authoritatively separate branches of the government that were directly answerable to the NSDAP rather than the O.d.W.

[KarlXII]

If you understood the SS-Totenkopfverbande you would know that it had a totally separate hierarchy from the Waffen-SS. The Oberkommando der Wehrmacht controlled the Waffen-SS, while the Nazi-party controlled the Totenkopfverband and Einsatzgruppen. The Waffen-SS was like the Marines and rarelly engaged in the actual purges as the wehrmacht was against such things. Regular wehrmacht troops also engaged in purges to an extent, yet they are honored for their heroism. Waffen-SS heroism was amazing during world war two and, while they were part of an unacceptably de-humanizing war machine which deserves it's infamous title, they are often mis-judged by what the SS-Totenkopfverbande, Allgemiene-SS and Einsatzgruppen were directly responsible for - three authoritatively separate branches of the government.

The Waffen-SS were involved with war crimes. EVen under Wermacht control. 29th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS RONA, a Waffen-SS unit killed 150 Canadian prisoners, 36th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (It's ranks were filled with common criminals).

http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar.../h-einz-42.htm

Were all Waffen-SS members war criminals? No, some were even conscripts. The Allies decision to name the SS a criminal organization was right, because much of it was. Honor divisions like Wiking, not Totenkopfverbande.

[PanzerJaeger]

"Punishment camps" seem to be more of an understatement, however.

It wasn't the best way to put it, but it is technically true and not automatically pro-nazi.

The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.

Tuff made good points. There were many honorable SS soldiers.

More of a revenge by the Soviets. And I cannot blame them. But trying to compare the Holocaust to this is plain silly.

Not sure how that is silly. It was a state sponsored ethnic cleansing like any other.

[KarlXII]

Not sure how that is silly. It was a state sponsored ethnic cleansing like any other.

So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?

[Kadagar_AV]

I am in awe of the waffen-SS combat abilities...

And as others have pointed out, they have a very underserved bad name. The allies were severely afraid of the SS combat abilities, and rightfully so, since they often won against overwhelming odds.

[Crazed Rabbit]

This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.

No, it's false. He said they were only punishment camps.

CR

[PanzerJaeger]

No, it's false. He said they were only punishment camps.

CR

What is false about that?

[Crazed Rabbit]

What is false about that?

They were death camps. Or are you saying death was simply a 'punishment'?

CR