Jorg Haider is Dead

[ICantSpellDawg]

Honor divisions like Wiking, not Totenkopfverbande.

Oh absolutely - I agree. The Totenkopfverbande and Allgemaine SS should be humiliated for their horrors forever. Waffen-SS groups who never had anything to do with purges and most likely had no idea they were going on should be honored like we honor U.S. Marines today for their sacrifice and heroism. They gave their lives to defend a Germany that they believed was right and good, even though at that point it wasn't.

[PanzerJaeger]

"Punishment camps" seem to be more of an understatement, however.

It wasn't the best way to put it, but it is technically true and not automatically pro-nazi.

The SS was responsible for many of the atrocities committed, and I hope you don't deny that. SS-Totenkopfverbände. The Einsatzgruppen, the death squads, that went out exclusively to kill undesirables. The SS was more of the political arm of the Wermacht, it's recruits, if I recall, had to be of Aryan descent, and pledge loyalty to the Nazi Party. Many of it's officers were well known Nazis.

Tuff made good points. There were many honorable SS soldiers.

More of a revenge by the Soviets. And I cannot blame them. But trying to compare the Holocaust to this is plain silly.

Not sure how that is silly. It was a state sponsored ethnic cleansing like any other.

[KarlXII]

Not sure how that is silly. It was a state sponsored ethnic cleansing like any other.

So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?

[Kadagar_AV]

I am in awe of the waffen-SS combat abilities...

And as others have pointed out, they have a very underserved bad name. The allies were severely afraid of the SS combat abilities, and rightfully so, since they often won against overwhelming odds.

[Crazed Rabbit]

What is false about that?

They were death camps. Or are you saying death was simply a 'punishment'?

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?

How did you get that out of his post? They were both state sponsored ethnic cleansings. Saying that the expulsion of the Germans was ethnic cleansing doesn't mean that you're a Holocaust denier.

[KarlXII]

How did you get that out of his post? They were both state sponsored ethnic cleansings. Saying that the expulsion of the Germans was ethnic cleansing doesn't mean that you're a Holocaust denier.

It doesn't mean they're comparable. Or justifiable. Somehow, I take it from Good Ol' Jorg's statement that the Holocaust is somehow alright because them Reds killed Germans. Nevermind the fact the Germans also killed Russians, French, Italians, Jews, Gypsies, Brits, Norwegians, Hungarians, Greeks, Romanians, Finns, Danes, etc.

[PanzerJaeger]

So the Holocaust didn't kill about 6 million undesirables? Or is it OK, because those damned Commies got the superior Germans?

No I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that both were instances of ethnic cleansing. The scale of the Holocaust was larger, but both involved state sanctioned murder and concentration camps.

They were death camps. Or are you saying death was simply a 'punishment'?

Death is a punishment in the US, how would it be anything else in Nazi Germany?

In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.

I'm also having trouble finding where Haider said the camps were "only" punishment camps. Neither wiki nor its source includes "only".

[KarlXII]

In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.

Yep. 'Dem Jews alright.

[ICantSpellDawg]

No I think you misunderstand me. I'm saying that both were instances of ethnic cleansing. The scale of the Holocaust was larger, but both involved state sanctioned murder and concentration camps.

Death is a punishment in the US, how would it be anything else in Nazi Germany?

In any event, concentration camps were not the same as death camps - according to Jewish scholars anyway.

Right. Not all camps were death camps. Many were just de-humanising work camps without the ovens or gas chambers.

I don't believe that Haider was saying the Holocaust was somehow diminished because of the german purges after the war - I think he was saying that, although the holocaust was massively more devastating that the ethnic cleansing of germans, the murderous ethnic cleansing of Germans was de-humanising and unjustifiable itself.

[KarlXII]

'The 'expulsion' of the Jews by the Nazis is comparable to the expulsion of the Germans from Sudetenland'.

Lol.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Lol.

Are psychotically genocidal campaigns comparable? Yes. Are they comparable in scope? No.

[PanzerJaeger]

I don't believe that Haider was saying the Holocaust was somehow diminished because of the german purges after the war - I think he was saying that, although the holocaust was massively more devastating that the ethnic cleansing of germans, the murderous ethnic cleansing of Germans was de-humanising and unjustifiable itself.

Yes. There's still a lot of resentment on both sides about the expulsions, and of course it is easy to make comparisons like that. That doesn't mean Haider was diminishing the Holocaust.

[Viking]

This is true. They certainly weren't sent there as a reward.

[...]That doesn't mean Haider was diminishing the Holocaust.

LOL?

"Oh, it's true that the consentration camps were horrible, but they were only punishment camps. Why I am saying this? Well...it's true!"



I guess, he was some sort of Captain Obvious.

[ICantSpellDawg]

LOL?

"Oh, it's true that the consentration camps were horrible, but they were only punishment camps. Why I am saying this? Well...it's true!"



I guess, he was some sort of Captain Obvious.

No, c'mon. Read the previous few posts, man.

[PanzerJaeger]

LOL?

"Oh, it's true that the consentration camps were horrible, but they were only punishment camps. Why I am saying this? Well...it's true!"



I guess, he was some sort of Captain Obvious.

The exact quote, made in a debate in the Austrian parliament on bomb attacks on Romanies, was:

'the punishment camps of National Socialism'

To which he later said that he meant to say "concentration camps".

As usual, a big fuss made over something as small as a passing reference.

[Viking]

The exact quote, made in a debate in the Austrian parliament on bomb attacks on Romanies, was:

'the punishment camps of National Socialism'

To which he later said that he meant to say "concentration camps".

As usual, a big fuss made over something as small as a passing reference.

That puts it in a different light; though his selection of words more than hints at an underlying attitude.

EDIT: No wait..what the hell am I saying? The concentration camps were certainly not punishment camps. A punishment is what you get when you've done something "wrong"; and what the Jews did wrong was being Jews. There is of course the thing with relativity; but in the modern Western sense, a punishment camp is somewhere criminals are sent; not someone with the "wrong" ethnic background; which was what these camps were largely used for anyway. It so incredibly clearly hints toward the real opinions of this guy.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Neither the Waffen-SS nor the Whermacht should be honored at all. Both committed atrocities - naturally so as they were institutions in a regime that condone and conducted atrocities on a horrific scale.

That the Waffen-SS fought harder is slightly more damning in my mind - their fanaticism in defense of a truly evil system is inexcusable.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Neither the Waffen-SS nor the Whermacht should be honored at all. Both committed atrocities - naturally so as they were institutions in a regime that condone and conducted atrocities on a horrific scale.

The RAF and USAAF also committed atrocities, as well as the Red Army. We shouldn't honour them either, by this logic.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I don't necessarily disagree with that. All served primarily to defend the interests of their respective states.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The RAF and USAAF also committed atrocities, as well as the Red Army. We shouldn't honour them either, by this logic.

They did not do them in service of a greater evil against mankind.

Death is a punishment in the US, how would it be anything else in Nazi Germany?

You'll have to point out where the government has killed people for being Jewish.

CR

[ICantSpellDawg]

I don't think Americans should honor the Waffen-SS or Wehrmacht, but Germans and Austrians should be able to. It was their fathers and grandfathers who gave up their lives for their country.

[Crazed Rabbit]

So? That doesn't make it right.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

So? That doesn't make it right.

CR

What is wrong with honouring our ancestors, who fought and, in many cases, died in the war? They didn't fight for the Nazi government, they fought for the country, or because they were conscripted. You cannot paint the Wehrmacht as an organization of war criminals any more than you can paint the USAAF as one.

We have the same right to honour our veterans as you have to honour yours, even though our veterans were on the "wrong" side.

[ICantSpellDawg]

So? That doesn't make it right.

CR

What do you mean? Hypothetical: If my brother gave up his life to defend my father who was an abusive drunk murderer, I would honor my brothers sacrifice. I would blame my father even more for causing his death, but the one who sacrificed was doing what he thought was right out of honor.

It would be even more sad that my brother died to protect a scumbag.

[KarlXII]

What is wrong with honouring our ancestors, who fought and, in many cases, died in the war? They didn't fight for the Nazi government, they fought for the country, or because they were conscripted. You cannot paint the Wehrmacht as an organization of war criminals any more than you can paint the USAAF as one.

We have the same right to honour our veterans as you have to honour yours, even though our veterans were on the "wrong" side.

Wermacht should be honored as the force it was. The SS, however, as I stated again, the divisions (Such as Wiking) that's sole duty was to fight should be honored for their committment and fighting ability, however, those who were involved with the war crimes need to no further mention for their atrocities. Alexander- the pilot who bombed Dresden was following orders, as was the Panzer Grenadier who was at the Seelow Heights. Both need to be remembered and honored for their fighting ability and bravery. To paint them due to their superiors actions is stupid.

[Strike For The South]

All that matters is America won. If the Germans or French or Brits want to be proud let them. The Americans Russians and Chinese are busy fighting over the world

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Wermacht should be honored as the force it was. The SS, however, as I stated again, the divisions (Such as Wiking) that's sole duty was to fight should be honored for their committment and fighting ability, however, those who were involved with the war crimes need to no further mention for their atrocities. Alexander- the pilot who bombed Dresden was following orders, as was the Panzer Grenadier who was at the Seelow Heights. Both need to be remembered and honored for their fighting ability and bravery. To paint them due to their superiors actions is stupid.

I would largely agree with this post.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

What is wrong with honouring our ancestors, who fought and, in many cases, died in the war? They didn't fight for the Nazi government, they fought for the country, or because they were conscripted. You cannot paint the Wehrmacht as an organization of war criminals any more than you can paint the USAAF as one.

When your country is run by Nazis, serving your country is tantamount to serving them. If no one volunteered to invade Poland...

What do you mean? Hypothetical: If my brother gave up his life to defend my father who was an abusive drunk murderer, I would honor my brothers sacrifice. I would blame my father even more for causing his death, but the one who sacrificed was doing what he thought was right out of honor.

That's not a very clear scenario to me, but if your brother was protecting your father while he was out murdering, he would have been convicted as an accessory if he lived.

It would be even more sad that my brother died to protect a scumbag.

Amen.

Wermacht should be honored as the force it was. The SS, however, as I stated again, the divisions (Such as Wiking) that's sole duty was to fight should be honored for their committment and fighting ability, however, those who were involved with the war crimes need to no further mention for their atrocities. Alexander- the pilot who bombed Dresden was following orders, as was the Panzer Grenadier who was at the Seelow Heights. Both need to be remembered and honored for their fighting ability and bravery. To paint them due to their superiors actions is stupid.

The Whermacht was a force not only with specific war crimes and atrocities on its record, but also one supporting an even ghastlier system. The pilot who bombed Dresden might not have connected the dots between his orders and the thousands of civilian causalties, but still should have rejected them.

We know that there is no such thing as "following orders" - that's one of the rationales at work at Neuremburg!

[Crazed Rabbit]

What is wrong with honouring our ancestors, who fought and, in many cases, died in the war? They didn't fight for the Nazi government, they fought for the country, or because they were conscripted. You cannot paint the Wehrmacht as an organization of war criminals any more than you can paint the USAAF as one.

We have the same right to honour our veterans as you have to honour yours, even though our veterans were on the "wrong" side.

Honoring those ancestors is different from honoring the Wehrmact. The Wehrmact fought to defend Nazi Germany, and every minute they held their ground was one more minute the concentration camps were killing people.

CR