Jorg Haider is Dead

[PanzerJaeger]

That puts it in a different light; though his selection of words more than hints at an underlying attitude.

EDIT: No wait..what the hell am I saying? The concentration camps were certainly not punishment camps. A punishment is what you get when you've done something "wrong"; and what the Jews did wrong was being Jews. There is of course the thing with relativity; but in the modern Western sense, a punishment camp is somewhere criminals are sent; not someone with the "wrong" ethnic background; which was what these camps were largely used for anyway. It so incredibly clearly hints toward the real opinions of this guy.

Punishment does not impart guilt. I could punish you for something you did not do. Describing the camps as "punishment camps" is accurate.

Besides, as I highlighted, this was simply a passing reference during a debate. It is not as if the man gave a speech about it.

You'll have to point out where the government has killed people for being Jewish.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The Jews were sent to the camps to be punished. One of those punishments was death. Therefore, Haider was not factually incorrect. You were.

Aside from that, I'm still having a hard time finding where he used the phrase "only punishment camps". "Only" would give some credence to the argument that he was in fact trying to downplay what happened there, although that would still be a weak argument.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The Jews were sent to the camps to be punished. One of those punishments was death. Therefore, Haider was not factually incorrect. You were.

Oh, I'm sorry, I live in some alternate reality where an actual legal system of just punishment for crimes is not compared to death camps for ethnic cleansing.

I wonder if you would apply that same rationale to the US military, which has certainly enabled many attrocities to be committed by the US government.

No, because the US government is not an evil entity, a force against humanity. The Nazis were an abomination, and I hate them.

CR

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

I wonder if you would apply that same rationale to the US military, which has certainly enabled many attrocities to be committed by the US government.

Agreed.

[PanzerJaeger]

Oh, I'm sorry, I live in some alternate reality where an actual legal system of just punishment for crimes is not compared to death camps for ethnic cleansing.

You're deflecting.

I said that describing the camps as punishment camps was a true statement.

You said that the statement was false because they were also death camps.

I explained that death was one punishment Jews were forced to endure. Therefore, the description was accurate.

Whether the Jews deserved to be punished has no bearing on the description, and no one is making that argument - or comparing legal systems. To describe the camps as "punishment camps" in no way discounts what the Jews experienced; and is, in fact, more severe than the term "concentration".

No, because the US government is not an evil entity, a force against humanity.

Ask a Native American about that.. or the citizenry of any number of South American nations.

To apply descriptors such as "good" and "evil" to entire governments is fundamentally immature and almost always indefensible when taken apart. Governments, by nature, are amoral constructs. The US government and the Nazi government were alike in that they were both concerned first and foremost with furthering their own interests.

"Evil" is more appropriately used to describe individuals, and there were many Nazis that would fit that description. No one thinks otherwise.

The Nazis were an abomination, and I hate them.

Good to know, but don't let your emotions cloud your ability to come to logical conclusions.

[Koga No Goshi]

Ask a Native American about that.. or the citizenry of any number of South American nations.

To apply descriptors such as "good" and "evil" to entire governments is fundamentally immature and almost always indefensible when taken apart. Governments, by nature, are amoral constructs. The US government and the Nazi government were alike in that they were both concerned first and foremost with furthering their own interests.

"Evil" is more appropriately used to describe individuals, and there were many Nazis that would fit that description. No one thinks otherwise.

Holy... crap. I find myself agreeing with something Panzer is saying. It figures it would take something so wildly out there as honoring Nazi soldiers' service for this fate to come to pass!

[ICantSpellDawg]

Holy... crap. I find myself agreeing with something Panzer is saying. It figures it would take something so wildly out there as honoring Nazi soldiers' service for this fate to come to pass!

Good.

People have been making too much of PJ's posts lately. I understand where he is coming from. Usually it is a misunderstanding of the Third Reich that leads people to believe that hell opened up on earth and demons took over the bodies of the entire German populace. They forget that honorable German men, women and Children died in the war - ones who didn't live near death camps and honestly had no idea that their government was slaughtering "undesirables" en masse. Who would believe that about their government especially when the governments main policy was to lie to the German people and keep any racial decisions tightly classified?

In order to understand humanity better we would be well served to learn the right lessons from WW2.

[Koga No Goshi]

Good.

People have been making too much of PJ's posts lately. I understand where he is coming from. Usually it is a misunderstanding of the Third Reich that leads people to believe that hell opened up on earth and demons took over the bodies of the entire German populace. They forget that honorable German men, women and Children died in the war - ones who didn't live near death camps and honestly had no idea that their government was slaughtering "undesirables" en masse. Who would believe that about their government especially when the governments main policy was to lie to the German people and keep any racial decisions tightly classified?

In order to understand humanity better we would be well served to learn the right lessons from WW2.

People have learned nothing. People think the lesson from WWII is speak in awed terms about the horrors of the Holocaust and support Israel.

I've been saying for years, that a lot of the mindsets floating around since 9/11.... my country, right or wrong.... this irrational throwing away of critical thought to support anything that is construed as for the good of country, and against enemies.... if that's the definition of patriotism, not a single one of those people should have ANY issue with anyone who participated in the Third Reich. Because I'm sure all those people were saying exactly the same thing.

[Crazed Rabbit]

You're deflecting.

I said that describing the camps as punishment camps was a true statement.

You said that the statement was false because they were also death camps.

I explained that death was one punishment Jews were forced to endure. Therefore, the description was accurate.

Whether the Jews deserved to be punished has no bearing on the description, and no one is making that argument - or comparing legal systems. To describe the camps as "punishment camps" in no way discounts what the Jews experienced; and is, in fact, more severe than the term "concentration".

They were death camps. Deserving has everything to do with it because punishment is viewed as actions taken for justice after a crime. Punishment is viewed as a penalty for wrongdoing.

It is not a more severe term than "concentration camps", because everyone knows what concentration camps means. Calling them anything other than that or death camps is an attempt to hide what they really are. An attempt to gloss over evil.

Ask a Native American about that.. or the citizenry of any number of South American nations.

I never said the government hasn't done evil. But it's the exception to the rule.

To apply descriptors such as "good" and "evil" to entire governments is fundamentally immature and almost always indefensible when taken apart. Governments, by nature, are amoral constructs. The US government and the Nazi government were alike in that they were both concerned first and foremost with furthering their own interests.

"Evil" is more appropriately used to describe individuals, and there were many Nazis that would fit that description. No one thinks otherwise.

Immature?

The Nazi government was headed by Hitler, an evil man. It was filled with evil people and carried out evil purposes. It is not an amoral construct, but a construct to further inflict evil on people. It is nearly alone among governments in history in that regard.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

They were death camps. Deserving has everything to do with it because punishment is viewed as actions taken for justice after a crime. Punishment is viewed as a penalty for wrongdoing.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Punishment

4. severe handling or treatment.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yeah, you notice how you have to go down to the fourth definition to get that, and the first three are these:

1. the act of punishing.
2. the fact of being punished, as for an offense or fault.
3. a penalty inflicted for an offense, fault, etc.

Those are the definitions of punishment people think of.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Yeah, you notice how you have to go down to the fourth definition to get that, and the first three are these:

It is still the definition, so he is literally correct...

[PanzerJaeger]

They were death camps. Deserving has everything to do with it because punishment is viewed as actions taken for justice after a crime. Punishment is viewed as a penalty for wrongdoing.

It is not a more severe term than "concentration camps", because everyone knows what concentration camps means. Calling them anything other than that or death camps is an attempt to hide what they really are. An attempt to gloss over evil.

That doesn't make any sense. Its very obvious that the Jews were sent to the camps to punish them. Punishment can be delivered undeservedly.

Also, you should look up where the term "concentration camp" comes from if you are interested in the use of semantics to gloss over evil.

I never said the government hasn't done evil. But it's the exception to the rule.

I could make a convincing argument to the contrary, but thats not the point.. a point you seem to be missing entirely.

The Nazi government was headed by Hitler, an evil man. It was filled with evil people and carried out evil purposes. It is not an amoral construct, but a construct to further inflict evil on people. It is nearly alone among governments in history in that regard.

Really?

The _________ government was headed by _________, an evil man. It was filled with evil people and carried out evil purposes. It is not an amoral construct, but a construct to further inflict evil on people.

How many different ways could those blanks be filled?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

For Louis and CR: http://www.time.com/time/europe/maga...derquotes.html

The entire point of this argument is the answer to the question "Was Haider a Neo-Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer." The answer to this question is no.

[Crazed Rabbit]

For Louis and CR: http://www.time.com/time/europe/maga...derquotes.html

The entire point of this argument is the answer to the question "Was Haider a Neo-Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer." The answer to this question is no.

February, 1995
In a debate in the Austrian parliament on bomb attacks on Romanies, Haider referred to Nazi concentration camps as "prison camps," though he later said that he meant "concentration camps."

Sorry, that's about the same thing.

And with these other actions:

February, 1985
When then Austrian Defense Minister and Freedom Party member Friedhelm Frischenschlager went to meet Walter Reder, a former SS officer return-ing from imprisonment in Italy for war crimes, Haider defended him, saying: "He did not receive a criminal but a soldier who did his duty for his fatherland during the war ... If you are going to speak about war crimes, you should admit such crimes were com-mitted by all sides and not pick on a few German soldiers."

June, 1991
During a debate in the provincial parliament of Carinthia, where he was Governor: "An orderly employment policy was carried out in the Third Reich, which the government in Vienna cannot manage."

May, 1992
Amid the furor created by the Carinthian government's decision to honor a gathering of Waffen SS veterans, Haider accused Interior Minister Franz Loeschnak of making "primitive attacks" on "respectable" war veterans, while letting crime by immigrants go unchecked.

Someone who receives a war criminal who was in the SS, praises the Third Reich in any capacity, or honors Waffen SS veterans is a neo-Nazi, who cloaks his feelings in the way Haider did.

Are you really going to say someone who said and did those things doesn't have Nazi sympathies? Oh, wait, he didn't explicitly say he loved the Nazis, which means he's not a Nazi sympathizer because all those people always come right out and say it straight up and never try to disguise their feelings to gain power.

CR

[PanzerJaeger]

Someone who receives a war criminal who was in the SS, praises the Third Reich in any capacity, or honors Waffen SS veterans is a neo-Nazi, who cloaks his feelings in the way Haider did.

Are you really going to say someone who said and did those things doesn't have Nazi sympathies? Oh, wait, he didn't explicitly say he loved the Nazis, which means he's not a Nazi sympathizer because all those people always come right out and say it straight up and never try to disguise their feelings to gain power.

CR

I understand why the US government has installed and supported dictators throughout the world that murdered millions of innocent people. I also understand that not everyone who worked at CIA at the time supported the murder of millions of people. Many were probably idealistic, patriotic men and women who wanted to come to the aid of their nation.

That doesn't mean I don't recognize that it was wrong. Its called perspective. A guy from Austria whose parents were Nazis is obviously going to have a different one than you do. That doesn't mean he's a Nazi.

Edit: Perfect example of what I'm talking about, from the ADL no less. The man saw things from a German perspective, but was not a Nazi.

Haider spoke out against the Austrian government's plans to compensate 30,000 Austrian victims of Nazi rule, including Jews, Communists and homosexuals, claiming that Austrian victims of the allies, such as civilians who fled Austria's occupation by US, Soviet, French and British troops, should also be compensated. As he told an elderly Austrian audience in April 1995, "It is not fair if all the money from the tax coffers goes to Israel." However, when the Parliament voted in June to set up a $50 million compensation fund, Haider voted in its favor. Still insisting on the need for compensation for victims of the allies, Haider explained, "But we do not intend to be petty. Even though you will not join us to widen the scope of the fund we will not vote against the bill. We too want to draw a line under a chapter we are also responsible for."

[Fragony]

Of course there were honorable SS troops, but we ought to place Haiders(?) remarks in the realm of what we know today not what was known back then. If you are going to defend the nazi's you are either one hell of a major idiot or a clever politician capitalising on the existance of major idiots.

[Viking]

Punishment does not impart guilt. I could punish you for something you did not do. Describing the camps as "punishment camps" is accurate.

Yeah, yeah, I'm not into discussing dictionary definitions. All I am in fact saying is that the typical meaning of the word punishment camp actually refers to a camp where someone who has done something society frowns upon is sent.

Besides, as I highlighted, this was simply a passing reference during a debate. It is not as if the man gave a speech about it.

Relevant to my reply just above; could you possibly ever happen to refer to a concentration camp as a punishment camp by accident? What are the odds? How often have one not heard the word 'concentration camp' and being fully aware of its meaning? Personally, I have never ever made such a mixup and have a rather...hard time imagining how I could.