Jorg Haider is Dead

[Fragony]

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

Did I really just read this?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

Like it or not, the EU is about spreading and safeguarding democracy in Europe. So sorry for all our authoritarian politicians out there. Don't like it? Leave. Get on a plane and fly to North Korea or Syria.
We just spend a disastrous century trying to keep communism, fascism, authroritarianism down. It nearly destroyed Europe. Never again.

Was Haider a nazi? Perhaps not.
But is it unreasonable for Europe to be very wary of nazism in Austria? Of Austrian politicians palling around with SS men, of singing the praise of Austrian moral superiority over lesser peoples, of Austrian anti-Semitism and praise for it's dark WWII history?
I think not.

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

Haider died as he lived, over the limit and full of gas.
Alcohol promillage of 1.8, and doing 142 km an hour. Thank God he crashed before he hurt any innocents.

+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

Frag - you whine about Muslims undermining European values and democracy, trying to install Islamofascism. Yet you are disappointed when Europe actually tries to prevent Eurofascism?

TuffStuff - especially for you: you do realise Haider had many extramarital homosexual affairs? He was legendary in the Vienna gay scene.

PanzerJaeger - On meeting Saddam Hussein in the run-up to the Iraq war, Haider expressed the 'best wishes of the Austrian people and the Freedom party as well as their solidarity with the people of Iraq and their wise leadership'.
You will need to choose, PJ. A man can't both support America and European nazism. They are mortal enemies.

[Fragony]

Frag - you whine about Muslims undermining European values and democracy, trying to install Islamofascism. Yet you are disappointed when Europe actually tries to prevent Eurofascism?


I thought you understood my position on the islamisation this is kinda dissapointing. As for Haider, if Haider would be elected would there be no democracy anymore, would there be no opposition, no parlement, he wouldn't be 'in power'. Never really knew him, looking back he is way too extreme for my taste but allowing the EU to intervene in national democratic processes, you kidding me? No way there is nothing that keeps the EU in check. The racist right exists for a reason, that reason being utmost stupidity and sadly the response is even worse if it happens to be the EU.

[drone]

So does this mean the US gets a free pass from Europe (or at least France) for cutting off the Palestinians when they elected HAMAS?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I thought you understood my position on the islamisation this is kinda dissapointing.

Actually, I though you and I shared an open and uncompromising aversion to Islamofascism.

You like politicians who break open a few taboos. Who shoot some holes in blind muliticulturalism. Maybe I do too. But where's the fun if we can't cross swords over details?

[Fragony]

Sorry, in 99% of these cases there isn't any room for play that makes one defensive.

[Meneldil]

Is there any wonder why the EU is having a hard time sealing the deal? I dont think most people want to restrict democracy within the bounds of what the EU finds acceptable or to be punished when they elect an EU critic.

The EU having a 'hard time sealing the deal' has nothing to do with Jorg Haider. The EU is a mess, that got even more messy with the introduction of 12 new members.

But as Louis said, the EU isn't all about 'free trade and single market', wether our british friends like it or not. It has political aims, such as you know, protecting democracy and all that kind of things.

I'm pretty sure that, would Jorg Haider have been the leader of the Austrian Communist Party, you would all have been like 'Zomg a communist is elected in Europe and the EU isn't doing anything :''''''( '

[Fragony]

I'm pretty sure that, would Jorg Haider have been the leader of the Austrian Communist Party, you would all have been like 'Zomg a communist is elected in Europe and the EU isn't doing anything :''''''( '

Who is the leader of the austian communist party?

[PanzerJaeger]

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

Like it or not, the EU is about spreading and safeguarding democracy in Europe. So sorry for all our authoritarian politicians out there. Don't like it? Leave. Get on a plane and fly to North Korea or Syria.
We just spend a disastrous century trying to keep communism, fascism, authroritarianism down. It nearly destroyed Europe. Never again.

Was Haider a nazi? Perhaps not.
But is it unreasonable for Europe to be very wary of nazism in Austria? Of Austrian politicians palling around with SS men, of singing the praise of Austrian moral superiority over lesser peoples, of Austrian anti-Semitism and praise for it's dark WWII history?
I think not.

That's all well and good, but Haider was a democratically elected politician who made no attempts to change that system. If the EU wants to bully countries that elect anti-eu politicians, thats their perogative - but don't try and dress it up as anything other than that.

PanzerJaeger - On meeting Saddam Hussein in the run-up to the Iraq war, Haider expressed the 'best wishes of the Austrian people and the Freedom party as well as their solidarity with the people of Iraq and their wise leadership'.

You act as though his sentiments on the Iraq conflict were unique to Europeans. Most Europeans sought to undermine US efforts. Your own president at the time gave Saddam far more support than Haider ever could have by seriously damaging the transatlantic alliance.

In any event, I do not support every position he held, but I don't discount him completely for those disagreements.

You will need to choose, PJ. A man can't both support America and European nazism. They are mortal enemies.

Nazism is dead. I support honoring the brave German soldiers who fought and died in WW2; and moving past myth of German exceptionalism in the "evil" department.


Also, poor show trying to use the man's sexuality to dissuade his supporters, as if it has anything to do with the discussion. You'd make a wonderful Republican.

[Strike For The South]

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

[Koga No Goshi]

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

I would imagine it's just the German version of American exceptionalism.

And although I think "evil" is a dramatic word, I think the reason any "exceptionalism" is bad is because it is basically embracing the idea that you are better, rules don't apply the same way to you, you rise above other people or countries, etc. etc.

[PanzerJaeger]

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

"exceptionalism in the 'evil' department"

I was referring to the notion that the Holocaust is somehow a unique event in human history, or even in the Second World War - and thus makes the Germans exceptionally "evil". Sadly, ethnic cleansing was a relatively common occurrence throughout much of history - and still is. As horrific and shameful as the Holocaust was, it was neither the largest in scale nor the most brutal in nature - even in terms of WW2.

A Russian politician who praises the Red Army is not automatically assumed to support wanton genocide and neither is an proud American politician assumed to support using nuclear weapons against innocent women and children. Yet somehow a German or Austrian politician who acknowledges the heroism and sacrifice of honorable German soldiers is assumed to hold Nazi views. It's a double standard that is thankfully subsiding as we move farther from the conflict.

Just to be clear, I'm in no way discounting the atrocity that was the Holocaust in any way. I just feel it gets an inordinate amount of attention for reasons that are not historically justified. It has become a profitable industry.. and frankly, the deliciously evil German archetype is much more interesting to portray in movies and such than some bland and obscure Russian gulag commandant.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Louis, there were rumors about Mr. Haider being homosexual, but to my knowledge, they were not conclusively proven. Either way, however, it wouldn't have mattered - are you trying to bait TSM, or are you turning into a member of the evangelical right?

[Viking]

Punishment does not impart guilt. I could punish you for something you did not do. Describing the camps as "punishment camps" is accurate.

Yeah, yeah, I'm not into discussing dictionary definitions. All I am in fact saying is that the typical meaning of the word punishment camp actually refers to a camp where someone who has done something society frowns upon is sent.

Besides, as I highlighted, this was simply a passing reference during a debate. It is not as if the man gave a speech about it.

Relevant to my reply just above; could you possibly ever happen to refer to a concentration camp as a punishment camp by accident? What are the odds? How often have one not heard the word 'concentration camp' and being fully aware of its meaning? Personally, I have never ever made such a mixup and have a rather...hard time imagining how I could.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Haider was a cocaine sniffing pederast.

I brought it up, not so much because I mind - except for Haider's incereasing tendency to rape fifteen year old Slovakian boys for kicks - but because I have an inkling that it might dissuade TuffStuffMcGruff away from him. TSM expressed some curiousity about Haider. Now he knows who Haider is.
Did I mention yet that our hypocrite portrayed himself as a family man? Married with children and all that?

I'm sorry I only have a German link. However, the accompanying pictures should suffice.


No more cocaine-imbued rape-fests of Slovakian children for you, Jörg! Auf Wiedersehn!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm sorry I only have a German link. However, the accompanying pictures should suffice.

Come on Louis, a better source if you please. I'd at least like some guarantee that those aren't photoshopped.

[Tribesman]

I did hear that Haider was going to be cremated , but there is a rumour that the crematoria are only a myth .

[Louis VI the Fat]

Links for Haider's homosexuality?

Here you go.

Oops, that was a link to a recently unveiled Berlin monument to homosexual nazi-victims. So sorry about that.


Did I mention yet that Haider was big friends with the SS troops that were responsible for the extermination of his homosexual friends? The guy ought to make his mind up. Tsk.


Here you go:
Haider got drunk in a gay bar. He seemed to have enjoyed himself - his alcohol promillage was four times the legal limit. In fact, he enjoyed himself so much, that he almost forgot he was supposed to be at his ninety-year old mother's birthday, where his family was waiting for him. So Haider speeded over there, with utter disregard for the lives of his fellow Austrian drivers and pedestrains. Then he crashed himself to death.
English language link.

I did hear that Haider was going to be cremated , but there is a rumour that the crematoria are only a myth.

[Louis VI the Fat]

PanzerJaeger, rather than adressing your post point-by-point, I'll share this:

Austria, of course, had nothing to fear from a European political boycott. Because, as a reward, Haider was supplied cheap oil from Israel's mortal enemies: Arab dictatorships. All Haider had to do was buddy up with his friends, the anti-Semitists and the anti-Americans of this world.

Controversial Austrian politician Joerg Haider has caused a stir by arranging petrol prices some 12% lower than the national average in the province where he is governor.

Mr Haider has declined to specify where he acquired the petrol, but political commentators in Austria are linking the cheap oil purchase with Mr Haider's recent meeting with Libyan President, Muammar Gaddafi.

No wonder Haider was enduringly popular with his province's hard-right electorate. The double whammy of supporting anti-American terrorism and thereby guaranteeing favourable oil prices for his province did the trick.

Of course, it is no wonder that Haider and his close personal friends Gadaffi and Saddam got along so well. Each shared an intense hatred of their mortal enemies Israel and the United States. And based their foreign political goals on the destruction of both states.
I am sorry to report that I do not take kindly to people who fanatically hate America.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Austria's Freedom Party has defended far-right politician Joerg Haider's meeting in Baghdad with Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, who used the occasion to urge Europe to distance itself from the United States.

The party said Mr Haider's trip to the Iraqi capital was a "courageous" humanitarian initiative designed to supplement the activities of the Austrian Foreign Ministry, although a ministry spokesman indicated his department had not been fully informed of the mission.

Speaking next to Mr Haider on Tuesday, the Iraqi president launched into a scathing attack on the US - and urged Washington to consider why the terrorist attacks of 11 September had occurred in America, and not in Europe.


Correspondents say the trip appears likely to cause some embarrassment among members of the conservative People's Party, with whom the Freedom Party sits in the Vienna government.


Iraq has also been seeking to improve its ties with the outside world in the face of renewed US military threats. President Hussein said during his meeting with Mr Haider that he hoped to develop relations with Austria, and strengthen contacts between his own ruling Baath party and the Freedom Party. Freedom Party delegates have in the past travelled to Iraq on "fact-finding" missions, returning with reports on the humanitarian situation in the country.

Mr Haider has also personally nurtured ties in the Middle East. Last November he travelled to Iran and Syria, and was recently seen in Vienna with the son of Libya leader Muammar Gaddafi.

Did I mention yet that for years Haider had a close, enduring and 'special relationship' with the homosexual son of Gadaffi?

EMFM: German link for you, that talks about the implications of Haider and outing him as homosexual.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

EMFM: German link for you, that talks about the implications of Haider and outing him as homosexual.

Whether he was a homosexual or not is a matter of some debate, and I thank you for your convincing side of the argument and the link, I'll read it when it's not so late.

At the same time, it doesn't really matter to me whether he was homosexual or not, since his private life is his own business and I don't really care which way people like to go. I'd vote based on merit, but I'm sure someone will continue the debate on the issue.

[KarlXII]

Whether he was a homosexual or not is a matter of some debate, and I thank you for your convincing side of the argument and the link, I'll read it when it's not so late.

At the same time, it doesn't really matter to me whether he was homosexual or not, since his private life is his own business and I don't really care which way people like to go. I'd vote based on merit, but I'm sure someone will continue the debate on the issue.

The problem I had with him was the whole Slovenian-German segregation he tried bringing in, particularly in the schools. We had a lot of people die so that blacks could actually be educated here in the States, and I find it particularly troubling that he tried segregating Slovenians from Germans in the schools. Towns with over 10% Slovenian minority were supposed to have bilingual signs put in, instead, he decided to take down existant ones. After personally moving a sign after it was deemed unconstitutional by the Austrian Supreme Court, he compared himself to Jesus Christ.

[Big_John]

Louis, are you implying that haider palled around with terrorists?

[Kadagar_AV]

As an Austrian I take offence to this thread.

Was he a perfect politician or a perfect man? Nope. Did he say and do some stupid stuff? Yepp.

However, that is not the issue. If you judge someone from the lowest of his abilities anyone would be seen as bad. May I remind you that the large majority of you who post here only know about him from an article or two. That is not the whole picture. I have lived in the country where he was active for a couple of years all in all, and take my word for the fact that he did some good too.

Again, I would never have voted for him. However, I can not honsetly say he didn't serve his country to the best of his abilities.

So he disagreed with a lot of American policys? So do I. Will you gloat if I die too?

Seriosly people, the person in question is dead. Show some respect.

I will gladly further a discussion about Haider with other Austrians who actually know something about him. But this non-Austrian trashtalk about a dead person who spent much of his life fighting for what he believed in is.... tasteless.

I don't like George W. Bush, but I would not gloat if he died either. In fact, I wouldn't gloat if anyone died.

He lived and loved just like you or anyone else.

So please, a little respect in this thread would be in order.



Just my thoughts on the subject.

[KarlXII]

I'm not gloating in his death, I'm merely remarking on my dissatisfation with his segregationist views when it came to Slovenians.

[Kadagar_AV]

My remark was directed towards "terrorist, drug abuser, homosexual, nazi..." and so on...

[Tribesman]

I will gladly further a discussion about Haider with other Austrians who actually know something about him. But this non-Austrian trashtalk about a dead person who spent much of his life fighting for what he believed in is.... tasteless.

Does that mean its tasteless for non-Austrians to slag off Adolf ?

[Fragony]

I'm not gloating in his death, I'm merely remarking on my dissatisfation with his segregationist views when it came to Slovenians.

Which is fair imho. Every politician is a person in the end, attacking the politics isn't attacking the person. Don't want that, then shut up. Not going to blame people for not being particulary saddened that he's gone. I'm not and I happen to agree with him on a lot of things but I have to draw a line somewhere. There are a lot of good people on the right, can't lose them to the likes of him.

[JR-]

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

The EU did not invade Austria, nor did it push him out of the office. It boycotted Austria, as it was perfectly entitled to do in that case.
Would Le Pen have won the 2002 elections in France, I'm fairly sure - and hope - he would have been boycotted by the EU.

So yeah, do not rest in peace, you were an ass and died in a stupid way.

an attitude, that if prevalent among the EU quangocrats, that is another reason why i want the UK to have as little to do with the EU as possible.

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

that defies belief!
how was the election of haider anything other than democratic?

[JR-]

nb

neither of my comments above indicate any support for haider or his ideas, i would quite frankly be embarassed if my country even came close to electing someone of his ilk.

[Oleander Ardens]

I will never agree with Haiders ideology but painting him as Nazi goes far to far. If he would be have been an Italian or Czech nobody would have gone so far. And many Italians aka Bossi have more extremist policies than he had.