On Re-emergences

[bamff]

These are one factor of the game that have always intrigued me....

I gather that the liklihood of a faction re-emerging in a particular province is determined by the relative loyalty of that province (same as in the case of a rebellion), and the number of troops that appear alongside the re-emergent faction leader is determined by the number of troops that are based in said province (please correct me if I am mistaken).

Some things that I do not understand, however, are as follows:

(I do so love smilies!)

1. Does the re-emergent faction have to have held that province at some point?
   
2. Does the re-emergent faction arrive with a little bag full of florins, or is it dependant on whatever it can eke out of the province after arrival? If it is the latter, then surely the re-emergence is doomed to fail - how could you feed, clothe, and equip all of those troops, let alone build anything new?
   
3. If you are playing in "High" or "Late", is it possible for a faction from an earlier period to re-emerge (ie one which does not appear in "High" or "Late" as the case may be)
   
4. Can a re-emerging faction appear with a navy, or do they always have to build their boats after arriving?
   
5. What determines the troop types that make up the re-emerging army?

Any assistance that my learned friends could offer in this regard would be greatly appreciated, both by myself and perhaps also some of our newer fellow orgahs....

[bozewolf]

As far as I know:

1.) Yes, even if it was just a year.
2.) I *think* they do have some money.
3.) Dont know
4.) Never seen them come with ships
5.) Not exactly sure but theyre pretty much always high quality troops. Sometimes outmatching your own, even.


Re-emergences do seem to be a bit of an enigme, though.

[Axalon]

Hi there Bamff (you too Boz), we meet again. I’ll help you out some…

As for your initial thoughts, wait for Caravel, its right up his alley, all the numbers and such.
Until he gets here, I’ll offer some remarks for you in the meantime:

* If there is a region that is under rebel-management, the re-emergence will most likely happen there, thus it does not matter how well you secure the loyalty in your province if any of those rebel regions are near (and potentially possible. See 1).

* If it is only possible to re-emerge in regular faction-territory the loyalty factor gets in to play for you.

*The re-emergence army usually are 2-3 full stacks (excluding various potential rebel-armies that might join their cause. This is utterly dependent on whether that re-born faction have ever controlled that rebel area or not. See 1). If you have more then that positioned in the relevant province, well then it won’t be a re-emergence there, the odds for that are too poor and the loyalty will be too high.

Now, there might or rather should be 3 execptions to these ordinary rules and that is the Swiss, Burgundy and Horde factions. As for the details on those, well I can’t remember them. It has been too long since I played regular MTW to that extent and era. For the last 2 years I’ve only been playing redux so I must admit that my “vanilla” know-how is not what it used to be.


As for your 1-5 I’m a bit more certain. My answers are as follows:

1. Yes. I fully concur with Bozewolf.
2. Yes. Full bag of florins. Roughly 20.000 fl. It might possibly be a variable to that, I don’t know. This is valid for expert-level however. Don’t about the other difficulty levels. Never play on those. This is hardcoded.
3. Pass (uncertain, my guess is probably not).
4. No navy. No rebellion values = not possible (see 5)
5. My guess is that it is primarily linked to the “Loyalist” category in AI rebellion values in “crusaders_unit_prod11.txt”. It’s the most likely candidate. It is one these categories that determines 99% of the re-emergent troops short of the kings/leaders unit that is.

Hope that sorted things up a bit for you.


- Cheers

[Knight of the Rose]

This is all well and good - yet I'll throw in some observations that I have made while playing. In the preceeding years of a reemergance I've seen loyalty drop in provinces previously occupied by the faction. No, I havn't been shuffling my king around. And I've had them for roughly 15-20 turns.

What I am suggesting, with no shred of evidence whatsoever, is that when the game engine realizes that a reemergance could take place, it will lover loyalty in order to make it happen. So loyalty is still a factor, but somewhat outside your control.

Am I the only one who have seen this?

/KotR

[caravel]

Does the re-emergent faction have to have held that province at some point?

Yes

Does the re-emergent faction arrive with a little bag full of florins, or is it dependant on whatever it can eke out of the province after arrival? If it is the latter, then surely the re-emergence is doomed to fail - how could you feed, clothe, and equip all of those troops, let alone build anything new?

I believe they arrive with some starting florins, perhaps the same as they started with, and then gain the "pillage" amount. It's not a massive amount (not enough) as reappearing factions go into the red quite quickly (e.g. 20,000 Byzantines reappearing on Crete without a port).

If you are playing in "High" or "Late", is it possible for a faction from an earlier period to re-emerge (ie one which does not appear in "High" or "Late" as the case may be)

No

Can a re-emerging faction appear with a navy, or do they always have to build their boats after arriving?

No they cannot appear with a navy. Reappearances use the same basic mechanism as revolts - i.e. land based only.

What determines the troop types that make up the re-emerging army?

They have to be trainable by that faction but the building types present in the province are unimportant. Upgrades and morale bonuses do get applied though IIRC.

Also reappearing factions can reclaim their old provinces and units. This is because rebel units from eliminated factions or civil wars retain a "memory" of their former faction allegiance. Loyalist revolts can cause rebelled provinces lost in a civil war to go back to their former allegiance also.

Some rebel stacks in the eastern provinces join the Golden Horde when they appear because of hardcoding that makes use of the same mechanism.

[bamff]

Many thanks one and all for your responses, some very useful information indeed (the better one understands, the better one deals with a given situation).

Thanks again!

[Turbosatan]

Slightly off-topic, I know, but I thought I'd ask:

Does anyone know if turning the AI off (using the -ian switch, then pressing "i") makes the AI angry with you? I only ask because I've been doing my usual thing of switching to a different faction to stop them building legions of ballistas & Mangonels & fill up their building list with good troops, & while I was there I thought I'd bump the boss's influence up by way of a crusade. Filled it with troops, sent it on its merry way (from Bohemia to Pomerania), the Novgorods refused to give battle & the next turn I got the "Children's Crusade" thingy, thought, "haha, who cares, MY crusade has succeeded!"

& Then I pressed end year, the Novvies had a civil war & nearly ALL of mainland Europe was aflame, from France to Lithuania! Bright red, with 0% loyalty! I've never played as the HRE before, so it might just be a side effect of playing them but it seemed a bit... OTT.