Javelinmen - Usage and Deployment

**Vantek** · 10-13-2008, 14:39

Having just recently got VI and started with a Hungarian campaign, I find myself puzzled by the newly abundant javelin throwers (Jobbagy, Slav Javelinmen). Now, I'm under no illusion that I don't suck horribly, but still I really feel like even if I was a god of micromanagement, these unit types would still have a huge luck factor pretty much inherent to them. Sometimes I don't do absolutely anything fancy with them, and they manage to halve a full stack of Feudal Knights in a matter of seconds. Other times I can put all my skill to the test and still they seem to have extreme difficulties throwing as much as one javelin correctly, instead preferring to sit around looking at the sky until the chance has passed and the enemy is upon them or, worse, willingly charge into (obviously suicidal) hand-to-hand combat rather than use projectiles from afar. Thoughts? I do know to always put them on hold formation.

On another note, is there any place where I could find replays (for VI) of multiplayer matches between good players? Also, if any of you has any single-player battles that you consider particularly spectacular, I would be grateful if you let me take a peek :) Vantek_ at hotmail, if you are so kind. What I would especially like is carefully engineered battles. The problem with me is that I am godawful at micromanagement! I knowingly pass spots to improve my position just because I can't bother myself to do the mousework! At the same time, I simply adore good micromanagement, kind of how you admire the skill of proffessional athletes in action. Of course, I would also enjoy any battles with a surprise or strange twist or epic scale (think Golden Horde nightmares...) or something otherwise unusual to them. MTW battle engine is very fun to observe in action, I just suck at getting that to happen :P

**Caliburn** · 10-13-2008, 15:00

Javelinmen are tricky but can be fun.

The way I started using javelins was to think of them as flankers that need time to set up their charge. At that point I used them against infantry, kind of as cheap anti-spear unit that causes damage before charging at the enemy. Sometimes I put them in front of my spears to catch a few overly bold horse archers that tried to get to the prime units behind the spear wall.

Using them against even engaged cavalry can be trickier, especially in the Early period, because a good cavalry unit can withstand contact even with Feudal spears for some time, and respond to your javelin deployment. There simply isn't quite as much time to set them up. If you're not quick enough, the spears might even break before the javelins finish deploying!

Maybe Javelins aren't quite a surefire unit: I agree with the randomness to some extent. Also, they only carry 4 javelins, after which they're just poor swordsmen (in most cases). After using their javelins they're not too useful against cavalry. They'll still work pretty nicely as Early period flankers, cheap and expendable.

On Early you don't get that many anti-cavalry infantry troops, so while being a bit tricky to use, they'll still cause more casualties than spearmen against knights. in many cases it's also cheaper to use them as anti-cavalry than your own cavalry. And if you lose a few or a few dozen, they're available everywhere.

Complex battles and javelinmen make me wish I had 4 more hands... For me they're trickier to use than Horse Archers. Well worth it in certain battles, though! And I like to use them as garrisons, because they're cheap and have that nice little bit of punch that can be used in a pinch.

**Vantek** · 10-13-2008, 19:33

Just a few hours ago I put my skills to the test, and sent eight stacks of Jobbagys (which I had used for random spam against the usual AI peasant hordes but just didn't need anymore) on a shore raid straight against the Khan himself, with about as many men of usual Golden Horde composition defending him, hoping to perhaps catch him with a lucky javelin.

I scored a whopping 22 kills, probably something like 3 heavy cavalry, 7 horse archers, and 12 foot soldiers. I'm pretty sure it would've been at least twice as much with autocalc... Probably about half of my soldiers routed, and every SINGLE one was captured, leaving me with an amusing 20:1 loss ratio.

This wasn't the only such attack, for some reason I really get a kick out of these "do your best with this worthless junk" battles. Too bad my frontline Inns are completely empty. In the other ones my Jobbagy were about as successful. Horse Archers, on the other hand, as long as I had a few stacks, usually scored at least one kill per face; admittedly largely due to AI's massive incompetence as all he'd have to do is go full frontal on me, but instead he lets me turn his units into an arrow cushion. Had too much fun with these crazy attacks... I also have about 1000 Armoured Spearmen/Chivalric Sergeants which I'm considering sending on suicide mission, wonder how that will go. Should've teamed them with my Jobbagys! Hope I won't be donating too much valour to my enemy =P

For me they're trickier to use than Horse Archers.

MUUUUUCH trickier. Compared to javelin units, Horse Archers are about as easy to use as defending a bridge with a horde of Arbalesters is compared to Horse Archers. I still can't quite forget how they slaughtered that downhill unit of Feudal Knights caught with a screen, so my recent pathetic failures can't be caused by just them being useless.

**caravel** · 10-13-2008, 21:38

Javelins are extremely powerful. The inhibitor of javelins is primarily the small ammo load and secondarily the short range - and this is a good thing. If it weren't for that, they would be very dangerous. A timed salvo from a unit of Murabitin Infantry/Slav Javelinmen/Spanish Javelinmen/etc can wipe out a good part of even the heaviest cavalry unit with one good salvo. The kill rate is quite high so if there is a dangerous armoured unit you need to hit and remove from the battle then javelins are the ideal way if deployed correctly, and protected.

I tend to deploy them just in front of the spear units with the skirmish mode turned off (this stops them moving out of position, making fools of themselves and getting killed). I also turn off the fire at will mode and simply attack the enemy by turning it back on once they're in the desired range. I get them out of danger by quickly deploying the spear ranks forward of them to keep them out of harms way.

**Martok** · 10-14-2008, 06:39

Javelins can indeed be very deadly when utilized properly, although I admit the latter part can be tricky. (That's one reason I've always been so fond of Spanish Jinnettes -- they can quick loose a volley and then get the hell out of Dodge before anyone can engage them.)

Caravel's set-up is about the best I've come across thus far: Place them in front of your main formation, and then rush your front line forward (spears, pikes, etc.) once the enemy is close enough to threaten your javelin units.