Rifle vs. Muskets

[CBR]

Sigh. It was more likely 80 yards than 800.

There is not one source that give an indication that it was a long range shot. They were impressed because he killed a general and quite possible the courage he showed by advancing 100 yards as he saw a chance and took it.

Some sources state the shot went through Colberts head. For a shot to have such power means it had to be much closer than 800 yards.

It seems Oman was the first culprit by stating 'from a range that seemed extraordinary to the riflemen of that day' and here 100 years later a range of 800 yards (coming from a Sharpe's novel) now keeps popping up


CBR

[fenir]

CBR,

I left my part open for such a comment, the RGJ museum in winchester, has the story, and it was wintessed by many.
Kinda like a court. The witnesses attest to the truth.
But to say 80 yards? is a dream, and an insult, the baker rifle was offically, ranged for kill at 200 or 250 yards.

There are also, many stories about 600 yard shots. So keep in mind, that when it has been witnessed, by others, are we to say oh you are lair? That could never happen? Just because we haven't seen it?
80 years ago they said that about the moon.
10 Years before aeroplanes, they said the same.
Nice to see nothign has changed.


And i thought it was a french retreat.

IN rifle competitions in the British Regiments, the Baker rifle had shown itself to be deadly at 500 yards on the range. Now that we have absolute proof. That was over powdered too.

Yes, i find it amazing, that 800 yard shot. I can quiet easliy believe 500yards, as I have seen old rifles do so.


Anyway, some information about the 60th and 95th that became the Rifle Brigade.

The Rifle brigade were unique in their time. They abolished the whip, they where taught to think for themselves, in open order, and drirectly target NCO's and CO's of the enemy.
They also operated in pairs. ANd where taught to use natural cover of the landscape.
They where also the first in the world, to hold regular sports, and rifle comptitions.
They also were rewarded for good service, and winning in the rifle comps, and sporting comps.
They also did not carry their colours in battle like everyone else.
And the officers of the Regiment, ate with their men. Unheard of anywhere in the world.

Most of what the RGJ did was unheard of in their time period, in fact it was almost another 60 years before any country did the same, and some cases over 100 years.


RGJ rifle Competitions.
The opening shots where at 200yards, later moved to 300yards as a start. and then they progressed from there.

See: Royal Green Jacket, Rifle Brigade Mesuem Winchester, Hampshire.


It was a tradition in the British army in 1700's, to practise and have compeitions with rifles, shooting a brid called a snipe. A quite small bird.
Hence, to snipe, and sniper.
The british where also the only ones who taught martial arts to their troops.
In the time period, British martails arts included, Pulism (boxing), Fencing with sabre and rapier, and still largely with a boardsword. unarmed combat, and Pole staff. where also favouriates.
In fact, up until the late 1800's and early 1900's, every Briton, was armed.


Side note: When i was growing up, on a high country farm, I used to have a .22 rifle. Bolt action.
And I used to hunt Deer, and Boars with it.
Most people that heard about it, didn't believe it. But when they saw the I could drop any one of them at over 200 meters, with a .22 rifle. Some of their jaws landed around their boot laces.

So i have been doubted about the ability of myself and my old .22, but that too was real. and I proved it to my doubters.
Liek anything, if you play with and use something for long eoungh, you soon learn what it can and cannot do, and how far to push it.

Wiki is a disgrace, and I shall rather forget the name than belittle myself.


NOTE:

The British 1910 Enfield of ww1, was able to kill at 1600 meters. using their volley sights.

Canadian Corporal Rob Furlong, Killed a Taliban Insurgent at 2430 meters. The longest recorded kill by a sniper. The Gun was a tac-50 Cal.
Unheard of 15 years ago.

Sincerely

fenir

[CBR]

It was witnessed by people, they just never wrote about it! The sources describing the incident are secondary sources. But hey visit the museum again and check out the names of the sources.

Just the danger zone for such a range is ridiculously short: depending on muzzle velocity it would be around 10-14 yards. In other words if a shooter misjudges range by 1% he would miss.

There is nothing insulting about the shot being at only 80 yards(not that it is conclusive that it was at that range, only that is a lot more likely than 800) and by reading what the sources write of the incident you should realize that.

Here are few links describing the sources and the last link goes into details like maps etc.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/resea..._plunkett.html

http://www.95thrifles.com/95th/histo...shot/index.htm


CBR

[fenir]

CBR,

you knw i don't read the disinformatin highway for my information.

Just the danger zone for such a range is ridiculously short: depending on muzzle velocity it would be around 10-14 yards. In other words if a shooter misjudges range by 1% he would miss.

not sure what you mean by this.

As for miss judgement by 1%, that is for any weapon. a 1% margin in a space flight, could lose the entire rocket.
This is when it comes down to skill and knowledge.

There is nothing insulting about the shot being at only 80 yards(not that it is conclusive that it was at that range, only that is a lot more likely than 800) and by reading what the sources write of the incident you should realize that

The problem with that is, the rifle was made for a 200 to 250 yard kill. That is the offical Kill range.
So 80 yards, as a call to 800 would be an insult.
I do find it hard to believe myself. But i have seen strnger things.\


OK i had a look at the last one of your links, here is a mistake, in 1808 flogging was banned in the 95th. Yet says plunkett was flogged.
THe same site says that the baker rifle is consider battlefield accurate up to 300 yards, offically.


Sincerely

fenir

[fenir]

From the Makers own book.

Quote:

An excerpt from Ezekiel Baker’s book reads : “I would recommend a young rifleman when he can fire well at two hundred yards to practice in windy and all sorts of rough weather. I have found it much more difficult to fire during the time of snow falling than in rain, the air being considerably thicker and the flakes of snow which continually fly about distracting the attention and dazzle the eye. A rifleman indeed should practice in all weathers, by which means he will ascertain what allowance should be made from the object to be fired at either to right or left as the wind materially influences the ball at long ranges. I have found two hundred yards the greatest range I could fire at to any certainty. At three hundred yards I have fired very well at times when the wind has been calm. At four or five hundred yards I have frequently fired and I have had sometimes struck the object; though, having aimed at nearly as possible at the same point I have found it to vary very much from the object intended; whereas at two hundred yards I could have made sure of my point or thereabouts. From my practice, I am convinced the wind has great power on the ball after it has passed to a certain distance. I have found it very uncertain to fire over water and if I took the same elevation of the object as on land I have found the ball drop short. Firing over swamps and bogs has a similar effect to firing over water. If a rifleman is in possession of a good rifle he should never use any other until he is a complete master of the piece; after which like the Master of any other art or science he may use any one for the instruction of others. I consider a person to have a perfect command of the rifle when he can take an accurate view of the bull’s eye in the target and strike it, no matter at what distance and take a distinct aim from any situation whether from a right or a left point, whether by elevation or depression and insure his striking it.” Baker also recommends the regular pacing out of distances to enable a rifleman to judge the range over which he is shooting to within 25 yards.

UNquote:


500 to 600 yards??? :))
ANd to think, he wasn't even a trained, experianced infantryman. he was a sunday shooter.


NOTE An instance during the Crimean war where Russian infantry in column formation were fired upon by The Rifle Brigade at 600 yards led to the Russian officers believing that the casualties inflicted on their troops over the time of fifteen minutes were caused by an unseen artillery piece firing canister or grapeshot at close-range. The death in 1864 of Union General Sedgewick during the American Civil War raised a similar enquiry: Sedgewick saw his troops under fire from the enemy and exclaimed “Don’t worry, boys! They couldn’t hit an Elephant at this range!” but fell dead from a bullet seconds later. From a later examination, it appears that Sedgewick was marked down at long-range by a Confederate sharpshooter equipped with an accurate English rifle which may have been fitted with an early telescopic sight.

The first ‘official’ recorded mention of Tom Plunket - outside company or regimental day-books - in a publication was in The United Services Journal and Naval and Military Magazine in 1839. Tom Plunket had many other adventures, many of which are recalled by Edward Costello in his book Adventures of a Soldier, one of many ‘rifles memoirs’ which followed after the war but was not published until 1852. It is stated in the book that Plunket did shoot Colbert by lying on his back to take aim and it is hinted later in the book by Costello that ‘shooting French officers’ in a similar fashion may have become Plunket’s ‘speciality’ and occurred yet again on more than one occasion during the battle of Corunna on January 16th 1809. Edward Costello didn’t take part in ‘The Retreat to Corunna’ but served from May 1809 in the 1/95th Rifles with Plunket during the Peninsula War, during which they briefly served in the same company and appear to have been good friends so had the opportunity to get an account of the exploit from Plunket himself.


SIncerely

fenir

[CBR]

Danger zone or perhaps more accurately "danger space" is the distance where a bullet can hit a target (in this case from the top of the head to the ground which is around 6 feet)

A modern day 5.56x45mm rifle has such a flat trajectory that if zeroed in at 300 meters its danger space basically goes from the muzzle and out to around 500 meters distance.

If zeroed in at 800 yards the danger space is split up and go from the muzzle and out to around 100-120 yards. After that point the bullet will be too high to hit a man until it has reached a range of around 700'ish and hitting the ground at 900+ yards, so the second danger space is nearly 200 yards long.

A mid 19th century Minié rifle like the Enfield would have second danger space of only about 40 yards for shots at 800 yards and 60 yards at 600 yards. It was one of the reasons as to why the rifle did not come to revolutionize warfare as some thought back then. Soldiers simply could not estimate ranges that accurately without taking several shots and watch the impacts.

This is of course from head to toe danger space. If one wants to focus only on possible torso or head hits it becomes a lot narrower.

For the 18th/early 19th century rifles used round balls, which have a horrible ballistic coefficient and therefore slows down even faster than the later Minié balls or modern day ammo. And that is why it has such a narrow danger space at longer ranges.

When Ezekiel Baker advised soldiers to learn to judge ranges within 25 yards it makes perfect sense as that would enable a soldier to place torso hits within 150-250 yards. And yes I'm sure a good shot could kill at 300 yards but it is still 500 yards less of the modern day myth of 800 yards.

------------------------------

Now I don't know why you think he was a "Sunday shooter" He was a gun maker who spent years perfecting the rifle, did numerous tests and wrote good advice to soldiers because he knew his rifle.

He writes he sometimes struck the target at 4-500 yards so where does your 5-600 yards comment come from? And this is still at a shooting range where he knew the range of the target.

I fail to see what the second paragraph is supposed to show? The British army had Enfield Minié rifles at that point. Sedgwick was IIRC shot by a Whitworth sniper rifle. It has nothing to do with the Baker Rifle. Also note that the Russians are in column formation which is a much deeper target than a line and thereby reducing the problem with narrow danger space.

Edward Costello is indeed one of the sources describing the shot but he was not there nor does Costello say anything about what range it was. He is actually the one telling us of the courage of Plunket as he says Plunket advanced 100 yards before taking the shot.

The flogging of Plunket is described in Mark Urban's "Wellington's Rifles"


CBR

[Oleander Ardens]

I think both of you are having a interesting debate, although I'm not always sure that it is on topic. I just wanted to add that certainly the British rifleman were a rather late occurance and heavily influenced by continental (German) rifleman or Jaeger.

Anyway guilds of marksman were are regular occurance, especially in the cities of northern Italy, Austria, Switzerland and Germany. It all started with the crossbow and through various handguns ended with the ever finer rifles. In Tyrol as elsewhere even before 1700 many guilds had a fixed minimum of shots for each members and great prices, often gifted by the duke himself, attracted thousends of shooters making for a fierce competition. Distances and the size of the various targets are recorded as well as the ruleset.

Aided by the terrain the Tyrolian Marksman would win from 1700 onwards practically every skirmish and battle on their territory against the French and their allies until Napoleon got defeated at Leipzig. Of course the results were most impressing in skirmishes and ambushes were substantial numbers of enemies were defeated with hardly any loss on the Tyrolian side.

[Veho Nex]

Sigh. It was more likely 80 yards than 800.

There is not one source that give an indication that it was a long range shot. They were impressed because he killed a general and quite possible the courage he showed by advancing 100 yards as he saw a chance and took it.

Some sources state the shot went through Colberts head. For a shot to have such power means it had to be much closer than 800 yards.

It seems Oman was the first culprit by stating 'from a range that seemed extraordinary to the riflemen of that day' and here 100 years later a range of 800 yards (coming from a Sharpe's novel) now keeps popping up


CBR

He was irish, it explains all things. The greater ones favor the irish