Phalanxes as depicted in "Alexander"

[duncan.gill]

Were the phalanxes accurately depicted in the movie Alexander? Compared to EB it appeared that the men in each unit were not as tightly spaced. Also were they that vulnerable to arrows (in the movie it appeared that archers were exceptionally deadly)?

[Maion Maroneios]

I believe they where quite accurately depicted in the movie, yes. A Makedonian phalanx would generally be more 'loose' than a RTW phalanx, AFAIK. As for the archers, yes they where very deadly. Maybe even deadlier than in EB.

Maion

[Woreczko]

As for the archers, yes they where very deadly. Maybe even deadlier than in EB.

Remember though, that in reality only front ranks of archers may fire with any degree of accuracy. Unlike RTW, where line of sight doesn`t matter, and you may have whole legions of archers pounding on a single unit.

[Cullhwch]

The archers seemed a little too deadly for my tastes. Hollywood arrows penetrate EVERYTHING, rendering shields and linothoraces useless. Other than that, it's the most perfect real-time depiction of a phalanx that I've ever seen. It's just too bad that it was wasted on a hokey and lackluster battle scene.

[konny]

The archers seemed a little too deadly for my tastes. Hollywood arrows penetrate EVERYTHING, rendering shields and linothoraces useless.

Linothorax is useless against arrows (or anything else pointy). It helps to protect your body against blows. A Hoplites does not realy need a cuirass or any other decent body armour because this part of his body would be protected by his huge shield. A good hemlet and greaves were much more important. On the other hand he is suffering from blows due to the pushing of the lines, both from the front and from the back. Here linothorax is well suited, in fact even better suited than metal, to protect him.

[Maion Maroneios]

Remember though, that in reality only front ranks of archers may fire with any degree of accuracy. Unlike RTW, where line of sight doesn`t matter, and you may have whole legions of archers pounding on a single unit.

While that it true, let us not forget that archers fired in a sort of parabolic curve, with the arrows finally reaching their destination forming a near 0 degree withe the vertical line most times. Especially when they fired their arrows from afar. So, when they start falling, their speed increases rapidly, as does their momentum. In the end, during the collision with the enemy ranks, while the force with which the arrows hit them (F=dp/dt for those who know) is not extremely great (due to the small mass of each arrow), their pressure is (P=F/A, where A is the area of the arrowhead) far, far greater. You see, while the force applied by the arrows isn't big, the area of the arrowhead is extremely small and as such it pierces human flesh that cannot withstand such great pressure.

Linothorax is useless against arrows (or anything else pointy). It helps to protect your body against blows. A Hoplites does not realy need a cuirass or any other decent body armour because this part of his body would be protected by his huge shield. A good hemlet and greaves were much more important. On the other hand he is suffering from blows due to the pushing of the lines, both from the front and from the back. Here linothorax is well suited, in fact even better suited than metal, to protect him.

I'm sorry to tell you that konny, but what you just said about linothorax is BS. Mayor BS. It wasn't invented because it helped against blows, as they - the Greeks - had cuirasses and breastplates for that job, a job in which they where both better than a linothorax. It was invented because of it's cheaper production (just a few metal pieces and lots of cloth stripped together) and easier usage (they didn't suffocate like with a breastplate, plus it was lighter). But most of all, it was used to counter the growing usage of missile units. You see, many strips of leather put together with metal reinforcements, does indeed protect you a lot better against arrows. They have even tried it with modern bows (aka stronger ones) and they found out it indeed helped (though it may have caused minor wounds).

Maion

[Socy]

Not taking any "side" here, but I think Konny meant "Blunt blows" when he said "blows", as in being pumelled with say a club instead of a sword. No expert in the area, but wasn't the linothorax actually effective at just that? Blunt weapons, but not "sharp" ones, as swords?

[Maion Maroneios]

Maybe, but that wasn't the reason I protested. The reason was because konny said the linothorax was completely uneffective against arrows, something absolutuely not true.

Maion

[konny]

Thank you, yes "blunt" was the word I was missing.

I'm sorry to tell you that konny, but what you just said about linothorax is BS. Mayor BS. It wasn't invented because it helped against blows, as they - the Greeks - had cuirasses and breastplates for that job, a job in which they where both better than a linothorax. It was invented because of it's cheaper production (just a few metal pieces and lots of cloth stripped together) and easier usage (they didn't suffocate like with a breastplate, plus it was lighter). But most of all, it was used to counter the growing usage of missile units. You see, many strips of leather....

I think you should be carefull with throwing around BS, do you? Linothorax is not made of leather but of linen (what, I might guess, is the reason it's called Linothorax?). I don't know how many layers of linen you'll have to use that it can not be penetrated by an arrow, spearhead or any kind of sword; but certainly far more than the usual 24 that was used for a Linothorax armour.

This kind of armour is absolutly useless against these kinds of weapons, but something you want to have in a pushing match with other heavy guys and their huge shields. That's the reason why it came up with the phalanx and the reason why it wasn't regarded as any kind of real armour outside a phalanx formation. Wearing chain in the same situation would be a bad idea, unless worn over linothorax or any other padded protection, because chain will increase the effect of blunt blows. The only alternative would be a cuirass that is made of a maximum of two pieces that cannot "work" (so, pectorales and the like wouldn't be good either).

[mcantu]

there is an interesting (and long) thread on linothorax over at RAT...http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=16574

another good thread is this one...http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11131, which shows how mail and jacks of differing layers hold up against various weapons. linothorax has the same basic construction as a jack (although i am of the opinion that the linen layers in a linothorax were hardened)

[Maion Maroneios]

Well, you see modern scholars have concluded that Linothorax wasn't made of linen, but of leather. Linen was very expensive at the time and judging by the number of this type of armor found it would be almost impossible to be made of 100% linen. Rather, leather seems to have been more favored, as it gives the same effect.

Next time do some research before your tounge speaks ahead of your head, I speak out of what I have seen or read, you of what is more or less publicaly known.

Maion

[Socy]

Nothing that's contributing to the topic, but Konny and Maion, keep it civil (Know I'm not a moderator, but hey, one can still contribute somehow, right?)

[Maion Maroneios]

Yeah, you're right... I guess I'm sorry, I'm a little more touchy than usual today it seems...

Maion

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm afraid you are both half right and half wrong. the evidence is that linothorax was indeed made of linen, probably with a bleached leather covering on the outside, but that a leather version of the Spola also existed. As to the effectiveness of the armour; there are three different types so far identified, a hard laminate, soft laminate, and quilted. All three types provide decent protection all round, as I recall the hard laminate and quilted are the best at protecting against arrow strikes but all provide decent hand-to-hand protection. Though apparently the hardened varient can crack under blunt trauma.

[Ibrahim]

I'm afraid you are both half right and half wrong. the evidence is that linothorax was indeed made of linen, probably with a bleached leather covering on the outside, but that a leather version of the Spola also existed. As to the effectiveness of the armour; there are three different types so far identified, a hard laminate, soft laminate, and quilted. All three types provide decent protection all round, as I recall the hard laminate and quilted are the best at protecting against arrow strikes but all provide decent hand-to-hand protection. Though apparently the hardened varient can crack under blunt trauma.

do you have a link to the construction method of such types? now i'm interested.

[Conan]

Hi guys,

Very rarely post myself but this is an interesting topic. I've worn a replica linathorax a few years back when I was with a hoplite re-enactment group and the topic of linathorax construction and what it is actually made of and the protection it offered is a firey topic for many people with many sides and opinions on the subject.

The one I tried on was made of 24 layers of linen glued together. The linen was 100% pure linen although I'm not sure of the composition of the glue used. Its was very stiff and a little awkward to put on. It was quite thick although with it been a few years back I couldn't guess at an actual measurement and was re-enforced all the way round the middle and on the shoulders with bronze scales and was surprisingly light weight. The linathorax was ment to be based on ones from the Persian Wars (490-480BC).

I have a pic on my PC of it on but can't seem to get it attached to this post...

Anyway the people at the re-enactment group tried using different weapons against one of there linathorax's and they said that it was "stab" proof/resistant with a small blade but that a good thrust from say a spear would easily get through one.

To say a linathorax is useless outside of a phalanx I would disagree with. It would seem that they are able to protect the wearer from glancing slashes or thrusts. Also most linathorax's would have been re-enforced with scales and plates to add additional protection.

As for what a linathorax was actually made of and constructed is just one of those things that won't really be know until/if one is found that has survived the ravages of time frozen on one of Hannibal's men who still lay undiscovered and preserved in the Alpes or in the hold of a trireme on the bottom of the Mediterranean preserved in ideal conditions in oxygen starved mud flats.

Will

[Ibrahim]

I have a pic on my PC of it on but can't seem to get it attached to this post...

you need to upload the picture on photobucket to post it here (you could use any internet address, and post from here, so you get the idea), and attach [IMAGE][/IMGAE] tag to it

[Conan]

Ar, did it....

Thanks Ibrahim

Yeah so as you can see the linathorax has its weak points but re-enforced with scales it does offer a degree of protection.

[Ibrahim]

you from that Australian group?

[Conan]

No the group I spent a couple of days with is based in the UK. Here's a link to the website if anyone is interested www.4hoplites.com I never became a member, which I do regret since my interest in ancient warfare has increased a lot since back then.

[Ibrahim]

No the group I spent a couple of days with is based in the UK. Here's a link to the website if anyone is interested www.4hoplites.com I never became a member, which I do regret since my interest in ancient warfare has increased a lot since back then.

ah, that's the one i was referring to... I was under the impression it was from Australia, but I was confused

[Carthaginian General]

ah, that's the one i was referring to... I was under the impression it was from Australia, but I was confused

You were under the impression that you were from Australia? rofl XD haven't heard anything more hilarious than that in a good time.

[Ibrahim]

You were under the impression that you were from Australia? rofl XD haven't heard anything more hilarious than that in a good time.

you would too if you asw their arms name as being australian-at 2 in the morning.

less ***, more forbearence.

[Carthaginian General]

you would too if you asw their arms name as being australian-at 2 in the morning.

less ass, more forbearence.

Oh wait, I read it wrong... I thought you said that you were from Australia, not it.

I wasn't insulting you

[desert]

[konny]

Next time do some research before your tounge speaks ahead of your head, I speak out of what I have seen or read, you of what is more or less publicaly known.

So, where did you see Ancient Linothorax?

[Maion Maroneios]

I searched and read articles about it (not specificaly the linothorax, but ancient equipement in general), not only on the Interent but also (though on a lesser scale) books.

Maion

[konny]

You missed the point: no one has ever seen Ancient Linothorax (for obvious reasons), so no one can say for sure what it was made of. Glued linen was certainly the major part of it - but everything else is either guesswork or part of the individual equipement of the soldier. A lino reinforced with plates of metal is certainly able to block pointy hits, but that's due to the metal that makes the linothorax effectivly a scale amour, not a general quality of linothorax. The same is with leather.

[Maion Maroneios]

Yes, but there are descriptions of it, or references from ancient scripts (at least that's what I have read). So scholars have, according to the information they have gathered, that linothorax was probably made of more leather and maybe even no linen. As for it's effectiveness, yes it probably was the metal plates that protected against sharp blows (not all, mind you), but it has been tested that such armor (with leather or linen straps glued together) does indeed protect against arrows.

Maion

[Dutchhoplite]

Now i'm very curious. What descriptions or references??