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Too much censorship on these boards.
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MODERATOR'S NOTE: The OP decided to edit out his previously-submitted content for reasons of his own. However, in the interest of reader continuity, and in light of the fact that several other posters have contributed to this project, here is the restored original content:
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MODERATOR'S NOTE: The OP decided to edit out his previously-submitted content for reasons of his own. However, in the interest of reader continuity, and in light of the fact that several other posters have contributed to this project, here is the restored original content:
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
This is something I have been pondering the last few weeks..
A childs mind is tabula rasa... Thus, forcing your own religious belief onto this child, is that not a form of mental abuse?
If the [being] of the child in his life would wish to seek a spiritual life, would it not be best to let this [being] do it on his own? Find his own way?
I could add more, and I will, but I would rather have it in the debate phase:)
~KukriThis is something I have been pondering the last few weeks..
A childs mind is tabula rasa... Thus, forcing your own religious belief onto this child, is that not a form of mental abuse?
If the [being] of the child in his life would wish to seek a spiritual life, would it not be best to let this [being] do it on his own? Find his own way?
I could add more, and I will, but I would rather have it in the debate phase:)
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
A childs mind is tabula rasa... Thus, forcing your own religious belief onto this child, is that not a form of mental abuse?
*Forcing* it is wrong. *Teaching* it is not.A childs mind is tabula rasa... Thus, forcing your own religious belief onto this child, is that not a form of mental abuse?
Originally Posted by :
If the [being] of the child in his life would wish to seek a spiritual life, would it not be best to let this [being] do it on his own? Find his own way?
Human mind can't do much if it has no information to work with. Introducing a child to a religion provides the child with the necessary information to make the correct decision on whether or not to follow any particular creed.If the [being] of the child in his life would wish to seek a spiritual life, would it not be best to let this [being] do it on his own? Find his own way?
Too much censorship on these boards.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
A childs mind is tabula rasa...
Your premise is also debateable.A childs mind is tabula rasa...
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
So what is the difference between forcing and teaching when it comes to a, say, 4 year old person who's world consists of mommy and daddy?
There is a reason why schools begin at the age of 7, and why more philosophical issues are handled when kids are 14+ (at least in the contries where I have gone to school).
Teaching is just that: teaching. It does not involve any coercement. As far as age goes, it doesn't really matter. If the child is old enough to absorb the information he'll absorb it, otherwise he'll just shrug it off. At 4 the child is unlikely to comrehend much of what religion is all about, beyond the most rudimentary things. For example, my daughter is 3.5 y.o. and to her Jesus == cross. So, A cross is Jesus, and a plus sign is Jesus. She knows that Jesus is something positive and that's good enough for me. Obviously, I won't discuss theology with her until she has reached the appropriate age.So what is the difference between forcing and teaching when it comes to a, say, 4 year old person who's world consists of mommy and daddy?
There is a reason why schools begin at the age of 7, and why more philosophical issues are handled when kids are 14+ (at least in the contries where I have gone to school).
Too much censorship on these boards.
Tabula rasa theory is simply false.
Too much censorship on these boards.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
rvg,
Is that not indoctrination?
Jesus is not something positive for everyone in the world, you know...
Indoctrination? Hardly. It's merely a parent sharing his worldview with his child. As far as Jesus not being positive for everybody, if you want to stick to that as your guiding principle as far as what should be taught to children, then there will be pretty much nothing left to teach, since just about any idea will findan opponent somewhere in the world.rvg,
Is that not indoctrination?
Jesus is not something positive for everyone in the world, you know...
imho yes but I am an atheist which kinda can be a religion of it's own when it comes to evangelistic behaviour, a religious person is usually far more respectful of atheism then an atheist if of religion and I keep that in mind, I think teaching someone about their religion is a better thing then teaching them to destroy it wherever they happen to find it.
Too much censorship on these boards.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
If that is true, you would have to come up with a very good reason why there are so many budhists in asia, so many muslim in arab countries, and so many christians in the US... Am I wrong?
No, you're not. At least not prove-ably. Actually, you make the point for 'the other side' that a human is not a blank slate, but rather has a seeming instinct (among other instincts, or tendancies) to seek some "bigger than me" explanation for existence. This instinct validated by the widespread and varied search for gods world-wide by humans of all races, cultures and times. Only the details vary.If that is true, you would have to come up with a very good reason why there are so many budhists in asia, so many muslim in arab countries, and so many christians in the US... Am I wrong?
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
rvg, that depends on what you mean with "jesus"... It is better to talk about christianity... What have you taught your child about christian beliefs?
Nothing, obviously. At her age she can recognize the defining symbol of Christianity, and that is good enough for me.rvg, that depends on what you mean with "jesus"... It is better to talk about christianity... What have you taught your child about christian beliefs?
Originally Posted by KukriKhan:
No, you're not. At least not prove-ably. Actually, you make the point for 'the other side' that a human is not a blank slate, but rather has a seeming instinct (among other instincts, or tendancies) to seek some "bigger than me" explanation for existence. This instinct validated by the widespread and varied search for gods world-wide by humans of all races, cultures and times. Only the details vary.
Human species is completely devoid of any instincts whatsoever. At least of anything that can be scientifically defined as an instinct. We do have some basic drives, but those do not qualify as instincts.No, you're not. At least not prove-ably. Actually, you make the point for 'the other side' that a human is not a blank slate, but rather has a seeming instinct (among other instincts, or tendancies) to seek some "bigger than me" explanation for existence. This instinct validated by the widespread and varied search for gods world-wide by humans of all races, cultures and times. Only the details vary.
Originally Posted by rvg:
Human species is completely devoid of any instincts whatsoever. At least of anything that can be scientifically defined as an instinct. We do have some basic drives, but those do not qualify as instincts.
You sound quite certain of this.Human species is completely devoid of any instincts whatsoever. At least of anything that can be scientifically defined as an instinct. We do have some basic drives, but those do not qualify as instincts.
Originally Posted by KukriKhan:
You sound quite certain of this.
100% certain.You sound quite certain of this.
Mental abuse? No, that would be demening a label for something very serious.
Indoctrination? Yes, but this can be said of just about everything a parent tells their children, starting with political views, then moral views, then a general worldview, etc, etc.
I was born into a family that was half Jewish, half Baptist and I was raised a non-practising Baptist. I don't begrudge my parents one bit for raising me that way - they were doing what they thought was right and through an education that encouraged individual thought I came ot my own conclusion that God does not exist. I only recently told my Father, and he was fine with it and commented "I feel I gave you a good moral basis to make your own decisions."
So I don't know where I am going with this, but something to chew on I guess.
Indoctrination? Yes, but this can be said of just about everything a parent tells their children, starting with political views, then moral views, then a general worldview, etc, etc.
I was born into a family that was half Jewish, half Baptist and I was raised a non-practising Baptist. I don't begrudge my parents one bit for raising me that way - they were doing what they thought was right and through an education that encouraged individual thought I came ot my own conclusion that God does not exist. I only recently told my Father, and he was fine with it and commented "I feel I gave you a good moral basis to make your own decisions."
So I don't know where I am going with this, but something to chew on I guess.
Originally Posted by :
We do have some basic drives...
What might those be? Is there a definitive list?We do have some basic drives...
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Fragony, how about not teaching them about spiritual life at all then?
That wouldn't be preparing them for a society where religion just happens to exist. I am not a father mind you, I would teach them to always hold a respectable distance, I hope.Fragony, how about not teaching them about spiritual life at all then?
Ideally a child should be informed in unbiased and rational way about the different world views and spiritual/philosophical positions in the world, and then be allowed to form his or hers own opinion.
but as we know the world is not perfect and this will not happen......religion and dogma is too engrained into our societies for it not to affect a child.
as for mental abuse?....I think you can find examples where I would use that world, like people that have extreme religious views and push that on their children causing them to live lives that are limited in so many ways....
But the average non-fanatical religious person that raises his children acording to his faith...I wouldn´t call that abuse....that´s an exageration.
Myself I was raised as a catholic, I was baptized, did first communion.....I don´t think I was mentally abused.....hey I even went to school in a catholic school for 4 years (and I wasn´t abused there either
) but when I got to the age I could think clearly about it I threw the religion aside pretty easily and became more of an atheist
In summation....moderate religious upgringing is no more mental abuse than telling a child there is a Santa Claus or a easter bunny.....or reading them Grimm's fairytales.
but as we know the world is not perfect and this will not happen......religion and dogma is too engrained into our societies for it not to affect a child.
as for mental abuse?....I think you can find examples where I would use that world, like people that have extreme religious views and push that on their children causing them to live lives that are limited in so many ways....
But the average non-fanatical religious person that raises his children acording to his faith...I wouldn´t call that abuse....that´s an exageration.
Myself I was raised as a catholic, I was baptized, did first communion.....I don´t think I was mentally abused.....hey I even went to school in a catholic school for 4 years (and I wasn´t abused there either
) but when I got to the age I could think clearly about it I threw the religion aside pretty easily and became more of an atheistIn summation....moderate religious upgringing is no more mental abuse than telling a child there is a Santa Claus or a easter bunny.....or reading them Grimm's fairytales.
Originally Posted by KukriKhan:
What might those be? Is there a definitive list?
The usual stuff...foraging, safety, shelter. The very basics.What might those be? Is there a definitive list?
Long story short, in order for a drive to be called an instinct, it has to be followed by every member of the species at all (applicable) times. There's quite literally *no* aspect of human behavior that can meet this condition. So, things like self-preservation that might *seem* like an instinct, actually do not qualify.
Originally Posted by rvg:
The usual stuff...foraging, safety, shelter. The very basics.
Long story short, in order for a drive to be called an instinct, it has to be followed by every member of the species at all (applicable) times. There's quite literally *no* aspect of human behavior that can meet this condition. So, things like self-preservation that might *seem* like an instinct, actually do not qualify.
The lack of self-preservation might be an instinct, we are social creatures. There has never been a society without religion, religion is probably the most basic codification of law, since religions have the same themes everywhere the same rules are in place everywhere. How do you explain that.The usual stuff...foraging, safety, shelter. The very basics.
Long story short, in order for a drive to be called an instinct, it has to be followed by every member of the species at all (applicable) times. There's quite literally *no* aspect of human behavior that can meet this condition. So, things like self-preservation that might *seem* like an instinct, actually do not qualify.
Originally Posted by Fragony:
The lack of self-preservation might be an instinct
No, because every member of the species has to unquestionably (or subconsciously) conform to an instinct. Humans have no instincts. None.The lack of self-preservation might be an instinct
Too much censorship on these boards.
Originally Posted by rvg:
No, because every member of the species has to unquestionably (or subconsciously) conform to an instinct. Humans have no instincts. None.
Don't we? Religions always arise in organised society's, when man has to deal with man. All cultures have some variety of celebrating harvest and festivity for example, pretty basic if you intend to be alive, I would call the harvest and reproduction celebrations a product of our instincts, pretty basic instincts, it's just how we deal with it without getting killed. Everywhere.No, because every member of the species has to unquestionably (or subconsciously) conform to an instinct. Humans have no instincts. None.
To put it mild, if you believe in God here, you are seen as the village idiot.
In towns perhaps but towns are not the villages, scandinavia is a very very very christian place it puts our biblebelt to shame.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
Heard of scandinavia?
To put it mild, if you believe in God here, you are seen as the village idiot.
You said that your mother believed in God. Is she seen as the village idiot?Heard of scandinavia?
To put it mild, if you believe in God here, you are seen as the village idiot.
Too much censorship on these boards.
Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV:
I was 19 when I discovered it... It is not something she shows in public, for obvious reasons.
So....in a free, democratic and supposedly tolerant society people have to hide their religious affiliation? Is this really the standard the human civilization should strive for?I was 19 when I discovered it... It is not something she shows in public, for obvious reasons.
Originally Posted by rvg:
So....in a free, democratic and supposedly tolerant society people have to hide their religious affiliation? Is this really the standard the human civilization should strive for?
don´t start getting on the "we are persecuted" stuff.So....in a free, democratic and supposedly tolerant society people have to hide their religious affiliation? Is this really the standard the human civilization should strive for?
people don´t have to hide anything...it´s not like you will be put in jail or anything.
but if someone comes out and tells me that they believe in the bible....literally.....I´m gonna laugh in their face.....is this persecution????.....don´t be ridiculous.
Originally Posted by rvg:
No, because every member of the species has to unquestionably (or subconsciously) conform to an instinct. Humans have no instincts. None.
That isn't the definition of instinct. Also, when babies go in the swimming pool they instinctively hold their breath.No, because every member of the species has to unquestionably (or subconsciously) conform to an instinct. Humans have no instincts. None.
Teaching religion is not mental abuse. If the parents are open minded rather than fanatical then no harm will come of teaching their children about religion or anything else. Some of them do have a "I must make my child a devout christian or else they will burn in hell" attitude unfortunately. As rvg said, just teach em a few things at a young age they'll still want to be like their parents, and at an older age they'll reject it if you push them towards it. That's the problem with religions that have a "hell" of some sort though, parents feel like it is urgent that their child follow the religion instead of letting them go their own way and just teaching them the moral principles.
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