What is wrong with having a Muslim as president?

[Koga No Goshi]

For every time a McCain supporter suggested Obama was a muslim, Obama supporters have just as vehemently tried to shout it down, as though being muslim would be some fatal character flaw.

I personally do NOT shout it down when I hear it passed around. I have always responded to the rumor with "And what if he was?"

I think it's a little bit of spin to say Dems are just as endorsing of the idea that "it's bad to be Muslim." I am sure you can find Dems who'd never vote for one (just as you'd find Dems who'd never vote for a black man.) But I think the outrage has a little more to do with the fact that, I dunno, it's a complete lie being made up to hurt our party by playing on ignorance. I think you'd see the same reaction from Dems if they heard from Republicans all the time that Obama had seven toes.

It would not make any difference whatsoever to me. I am not Christian and I have never even had the option of voting for a major party candidate who was not Christian, or at least did not heavily profess to be one. As long as their religious views (be they Sikh or Christian or Muslim or Buddhist) does not underline and inform their policy views on everything and God doesn't tell them which wars to start, my vote is within their potential reach.

[rvg]

I personally do NOT shout it down when I hear it passed around. I have always responded to the rumor with "And what if he was?"...

Realistically, it would likely be the kiss of death for his presidential bid.

[Koga No Goshi]

Realistically, it would likely be the kiss of death for his presidential bid.

Of course it would. No one denied most Americans are stupid and hypocritically prejudiced, even within the confines of the "freedoms" they profess to stand for.

[rvg]

Of course it would. No one denied most Americans are stupid and hypocritically prejudiced, even within the confines of the "freedoms" they profess to stand for.

Well, I will certainly deny that. People have a very natural tendency to gravitate towards their own kind. There's nothing wrong with that. Thus, Waspy McWaspers will always stand a better chance of getting elected than anyone else, while a muslim's chances will be slim provided that his opponent is not a complete idiot. People out of two similar choices people will always vote for a safer one. That's quite the opposite of being stupid.

[yesdachi]

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Strike For The South]

Nothing is wrong with it. Just people in Missouri seem to have a problem with it.

[Fragony]

Preventing a muslim from becomming a president would be betraying our system. But I don't want a muslim president for the same reason I don't want a nazi president, it's a sick religion that has brought nothing other then misery and death at worst and backwardness at best. Most muslims are good people but that's a despite not a because, islam is simply evil if you let it be.

[HoreTore]

Well, I will certainly deny that. People have a very natural tendency to gravitate towards their own kind. There's nothing wrong with that. Thus, Waspy McWaspers will always stand a better chance of getting elected than anyone else, while a muslim's chances will be slim provided that his opponent is not a complete idiot. People out of two similar choices people will always vote for a safer one. That's quite the opposite of being stupid.

Uhm...... No, I'd say that's pretty much the definition of stupidity. Choosing your leader because of anything but skill and politics is downright retarded.

[Incongruous]

Uhm...... No, I'd say that's pretty much the definition of stupidity. Choosing your leader because of anything but skill and politics is downright retarded.

Don't be so dense, a person's political beliefs are not an independent construct, you and I both know that our backrounds and culture inform our daily lives.

Also, take down the high hand, I would call you a liar if you did not hold prejudices towards a certain group of people and would allow it to (in some degree) inform your view of them as politicians. It is human, dont you love humans?

[HoreTore]

Also, take down the high hand, I would call you a liar if you did not hold prejudices towards a certain group of people and would allow it to (in some degree) inform your view of them as politicians. It is human, dont you love humans?

The first part is most likely true, the second one is definitely not. Why? Because I don't want a bloody "leader", I want a skilled administrator who does what I want him to. As such, his culture, his charisma, his whatever means absolutely zero to me. It doesn't matter at all whether a person cheats, lies, has a thing for 20-year old playthings in weird costumes, likes to tap feet at public bathrooms or whatever. As long as they're skilled and doesn't put money in their pockets, it's all good to me. Why should ethnicity play a part? The days when people favoured "their own" at the expense of others are, thankfully, gone.

Oh, and my most recent political love affair has been with a a colonial(black) frenchie, Manuela Ramin Osmundsen.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Uhm...... No, I'd say that's pretty much the definition of stupidity. Choosing your leader because of anything but skill and politics is downright retarded.

Which doesn't preclude it being perfectly correct.

[Kralizec]

Before being confronted with a formidable army of strawmen, let me emphasize that I'm not a christian or ever have been one.

It's true that Christianity has a pretty impressive record of vile deeds being done in its name, and it took time and great effort to overcome such dogmas as Divine Right. Islamic countries might take more time to reach enlightenment not because it's 600 years younger, but because they're less developed mostly due to historical influences wich have little to do with theological differences.
However I don't think that they're completely irrelevant either. Wearing veils used to be the norm for women in many eastern christian communities (including Byzantium, I believe) before the Islamic invasions but the practice was never universally adopted.
The Bible is a collection of texts; many texts from the same timeframes aren't included because they didn't survive or were refused for reasons either religious or political. The Qu'ran claims to be handed literally, word for word, to Muhammed by the angel Gabriel. It claims that it's the final, infallible product of Gods word, that there will be no other prophets after Muhammed until final judgement. The Bible tells you to "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's" and developed the doctrine of two swords; while on the other hand Islam was slated not just as a religion but as a way of life and governance. The Bible is (in itself) a loose collection of vague moral imperatives and metaphorical tales, the Qu'ran is an exhaustive code to live by. With this in mind you could make the case that a devout muslim will need a lot more creative thinking to embrace things like the seperation of religion and state than a devout christian.*

That said, religions as such don't kill or opress people, only followers do. It's perfectly possible for a politician of a muslim background to have modern ideas and I'll give anyone the benefit of doubt regardless of how they grew up. I also accept that a persons (religious) background will always shape that persons beliefs to a certain degree. However as soon as said person starts defending second-rate treatment of women or starts advocating for (parts of) the Sharia code to be implemented on top of our existing legal system they're disqualified as far as I'm concerned.

(*maybe this whole paragraph will be proven wrong in a century or so, but we'll just have to wait and see)

[Incongruous]

Of course it would. No one denied most Americans are stupid and hypocritically prejudiced, even within the confines of the "freedoms" they profess to stand for.

This is one of the issues, people such as yourself who profess to have no problems with Islamic presidents are slitting your own throats.
I find it amusing someone who claims a love of socialism to be so scathing of your fellow taxpayers, where is the respect?

This lack of respect and elitist midset will do nothing but cause your beliefs to fail, if you constantly gaze down at people they will push you over.

[CountArach]

This lack of respect and elitist midset will do nothing but cause your beliefs to fail, if you constantly gaze down at people they will push you over.

The standard answer to that being that education is not as affordable as it needs to be (It has been shown that as education increases racism decreases) and that a society that has racism deeply embedded within it will find that "trickles down" to the lowest class much better (As people find they have a lack of money they move towards racism and xenophobia, at least that is what some recent analysis down here as shown).

[Incongruous]

The standard answer to that being that education is not as affordable as it needs to be (It has been shown that as education increases racism decreases) and that a society that has racism deeply embedded within it will find that "trickles down" to the lowest class much better (As people find they have a lack of money they move towards racism and xenophobia, at least that is what some recent analysis down here as shown).

So, we all get an education and look down on the new lower classes?

Please, most higher education is paper thin, instilling nothing but soundbites, saying that that is the future is a condemnation of human intelligence.
As you get smarter, your prejudices simply get more...
cultured?

[LittleGrizzly]

Why does the Left continue to use Christianity's past to somehow try and justify Islam's present?

Look its pretty simple really, the places where islam is dominant are mainly backwards societys which have various foriegn powers eyeing them threateningly, look at places where christianity was predominant when our countrys where at the level most muslims countrys are now

Anyone who somehow thinks christianity is somehow better than islam has just deluded themselves into thinking they are somehow better, if islam was predominant in the west and christianity in the middle east (basically the opposite of now) it would be a bunch of smug muslims here telling us how christianity is so backwards and thats why we can't have a christian president...

No, not QED. Nazism vehemently rejected Christianity because of its Jewish origin.

Incorrect, the nazis very much used christianity to thier advantadge, as with most bad world leaders they realised they could use it as a form of control and a call to arms.... infact extremely similar to what some modern muslims do today...

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhit...iChristian.htm

ill try and find a better one...

The opposition of many adherents of traditional religions to Nazism is only one side of the issue. Within the Lutheran Churches in Germany, the most prominent members of the Bekennende Kirche (Confessing Church), Martin Niemöller and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, opposed Nazism. They were, however, (as of 1932) in the minority in the Evangelical Church in Germany, compared to the Deutsche Christen (German Christians), who supported National Socialism and cooperated with the Nazis. However, even the "Confessing Church made frequent declarations of loyalty to Hitler".[7]


from wiki article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

Both men had ceased to attend Catholic services or to take Confessions long before 1933, but had neither left the church nor refused to pay their church taxes.[9] They could thus be classified as nominally Catholic.[9]
Methodist Bishop F. H. Otto Melle took a far more collaborationist position that included apparently sincere support for Nazism. He felt that serving the Reich was both a patriotic duty and a means of advancement. To show his gratitude, Hitler made a gift of 10,000 marks in 1939 to a Methodist congregation to purchase an organ
The leader of pro-Nazi segment of Baptists was Paul Schmidt. Hitler also led to the unification of Pro-Nazi Protestants in the Protestant Reich Church which was led by Ludwig Müller. The idea of such a "national church" was possible in the history of mainstream German Protestantism, but National Churches devoted primarily to the state were generally forbidden among the Anabaptists, Jehovah's Witnesses, and in Catholicism.

In the right situation christianity is every bit the backward religion that islam is, people try and deny the links between the nazi's nd christianity and these same people will then link islam and terrorism and tell us how backwars islam is, im sick of this hypocritical attitude, christianity and christians are every bit as easy to subvert as islam and muslims given the right circumstances.

in a bit of a rush ill post up some more later

It is well known that the church mainly went along with hitler, they where at one point perhaps the last thing that could have stopped him, but religion as usual showed its true colours in extreme circumstances and went along with the nazis.

Religion is only as good as its followers.

And they're followers are only as good as the wealth and education levels of thier populace, also a religion is less likely to experience a religious enlightment with an outside presence to point at as a threat instead

[Ironside]

So, we all get an education and look down on the new lower classes?

Please, most higher education is paper thin, instilling nothing but soundbites, saying that that is the future is a condemnation of human intelligence.
As you get smarter, your prejudices simply get more...
cultured?

Actually, there's a tendency for higher educated people to have weaker prejudices, maybe it's simply more cultured, but there's a general benefit if people react less upon thier prejudices and try more to keep it fair.

Well I'd be happy if we can convince Europe of the benefit of a president over hereditary clowns before the end of this millenium in the first place.

But...the current Swedish PM, Fredrik Reinfeldt, is of mixed white / black heritage. Afro-American to boot. Not Obama - if he wins - but Reinfeldt is the first Afro-American to become the leader of a predominantly white, protestant country.

To be fair, that's 1/64 Afro-American blood, although an interesting curiosa story (that I didn't know about ), but circus director to prime minister in a few generations is quite impressive.

The same ole theme gets a little annoying after awhile, Strike. America is really at it's social progression's height right now and it gets no acknowledgment, in fact, it just gets slammed still by Americans and others for being some racist, xenophobic cesspool.

A decade or so ago there was a raging debate about whether or not homosexuals could even join the military, and the issue was outrageous too many. Just a week or two ago I saw a prominent celebrity come out of the closet and on the morning talk shows openly discussing his lifestyle and his role as a gay parent. 40 years ago black people were drinking out of separate water fountains and now one is steam rolling his way to president.

You are 500 times more likely to run into someone in day to day life who says, 'It's disgusting that some idiots are using 'Obama is a muslim' as a smear!' than you are to actually hear someone saying, 'I just won't vote for Muslim scum for President.' I know it's not a sexy or popular thing to say, and many Americans and many Euros are in denial about it, but America really rocks when it comes to resolving bigoted views quickly.

Except when it comes to religion, that's one of those odd thingies you don't get from a European perspective. Here (atleast in northern Europe) if you're Christian or whatever fine no problem, but you don't talk about it. If you seek guidance from God, Jesus, Allah, Kali, the Flying Spagetti monster, three midgets or whatever you don't talk about it. Simply put, it's a private matter. Sure it might affect your politics, but then we see it there and not when you proclaim your faith.

To put it differently, I don't know the (lack of?) religious faith of our PM or any other minister or party leader, even if I can guess in some cases (like that the leader of the Christian democrats are probably Christian and the leader of the Left party is probably atheist).

[Koga No Goshi]

This is one of the issues, people such as yourself who profess to have no problems with Islamic presidents are slitting your own throats.
I find it amusing someone who claims a love of socialism to be so scathing of your fellow taxpayers, where is the respect?

This lack of respect and elitist midset will do nothing but cause your beliefs to fail, if you constantly gaze down at people they will push you over.

I have no patience whatsoever for people who remain willfully stupid and uneducated, preferring to believe that just about everyone outside of the U.S. irrationally hates us and that none of the rules we apply to others seem to apply in quite the same way to ourselves.

I would wager, for instance, that the number of Americans most vehement in their condemnation of Islam includes many Americans who have never actually interacted with a Muslim in any direct fashion. These are people on message boards flaming away and "teaching" the silly naive people like me about how all Muslims want to kill me and Middle Easterners all hate America. I don't need to consult people on the internet to learn about Muslims or Middle Easterners. I have met, known, and worked with many in my real life. All of them have failed to kill me or "slit my throat."

That is not to say Islam doesn't have its issues and many Middle Eastern societies do not have problems. But I do have a problem with this pride we Americans take in how we accept difference and tolerate dissent and uphold respect for and freedom of religion and consider ourselves exceptional and the best nation in the world for it--- while tagging someone with the title of "Muslim" would disqualify them from President and a lot of people are happy to jump on a self-righteous horse that their religion is better and more moral and less violent than someone else's.

I also think that, while yes, some people in the Middle East hate the U.S. just because they've been taught to, and not for any personal or rational reason per se, I think that its counterpart in the U.S. of merely assuming that anyone who DOES hate us must necessarily be irrational and have no legitimate cause whatsoever is fully ignorant of our foreign policy, or doesn't care. They're just Arabs, if we blow them up or prop up dictators in their countries, well, they're no worse off than they'd be anyway right? They're just Arabs. I think that when America's foreign policy comes back to bite us we have a tendency to assume the role of the innocent victim and some of this is from ignorance and some of this is from a belief that their lives aren't worth as much as ours are.

And for the record, Strike, I never argued anyone got a pass for being a young religion. That was a perversion of my point by RVG and Panzer. But I did say, and still say, that anyone who believes there is something inherently written into the "code" of Islam which "makes it violent", which isn't present in Christianity and virtually every other religion, is just being ethnocentric and holding a double standard. The U.S. and every other country in North and South America only exist in their present forms precisely because Christians were willing to come over and kill people or deprive them of their land and basis for survival because they were non-Christian "savages."

[rvg]

But I did say, and still say, that anyone who believes there is something inherently written into the "code" of Islam which "makes it violent", which isn't present in Christianity and virtually every other religion, is just being ethnocentric and holding a double standard.

Yes, violent and oppressive stuff can be found in the holy texts of all major religions. The difference is that in this day and age most Christian societies ignore the oppression and violence, while most Muslim societies follow it. Religion is only as good as its followers.

[Fragony]

Yes, violent and oppressive stuff can be found in the holy texts of all major religions. The difference is that in this day and age most Christian societies ignore the oppression and violence, while most Muslim societies follow it. Religion is only as good as its followers.

Would like to point out something else, the bible is a collection of events and not written in a imperative nature. Christianty -> god was with us Islam ->do this. The nature of islam is wildly different from other world religions, it needs no justifications for what it has done, but only for what it has to do.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Yes, violent and oppressive stuff can be found in the holy texts of all major religions. The difference is that in this day and age most Christian societies ignore the oppression and violence, while most Muslim societies follow it. Religion is only as good as its followers.

Ergo, there is nothing wrong with muslim's from developed countries being presidents.

[Jolt]

Yes, violent and oppressive stuff can be found in the holy texts of all major religions. The difference is that in this day and age most Christian societies ignore the oppression and violence, while most Muslim societies follow it. Religion is only as good as its followers.

A correct statement. However, the USA isn't a muslim society. Therefore that sentence is irrelevant.

Would like to point out something else, the bible is a collection of events and not written in a imperative nature. Christianty -> god was with us Islam ->do this. The nature of islam is wildly different from other world religions, it needs no justifications for what it has done, but only for what it has to do.

I am willing to bet my entires savings on how you have never ever, ever even read three pages of Quran. Just for the record, it is stupid to talk about something you have never read, and give your opinion as if you knew how it was written. You see, the opinion you just voiced about how the Quran is written is exactly what the terrorrists say. And I can tell you that since old times, the CHURCH also said that the Bible only had ONE INTERPRETATION. Just "do this". And what do you call the Ten Mandaments? The Ten BASIC Mandaments? Aren't they mandatory? Aren't they your "do this" type?