No better than them

[Csargo]

Same could be said for you.

Makes no sense.

[Strike For The South]

Makes no sense.

How so? He has no idea how hard or easy it was to resist. Fact of the matter is that if you are German who acquired land of a dead Hungarian pole or jew or if you were living in there lands you should realize there are going to be rather messed up consequences. I dont feel bad for the guy who threw the first punch and I dont feel bad for the Germans who got caught up in the Reich

[Csargo]

How so? He has no idea how hard or easy it was to resist. Fact of the matter is that if you are German who acquired land of a dead Hungarian pole or jew or if you were living in there lands you should realize there are going to be rather messed up consequences. I dont feel bad for the guy who threw the first punch and I dont feel bad for the Germans who got caught up in the Reich

He didn't claim it was easy to resist.

[Strike For The South]

He didn't claim it was easy to resist.

Neither did I

[Csargo]

Neither did I

Misread that. Sorry.

[Strike For The South]

Misread that. Sorry.

Not a problem

[Koga No Goshi]

Recently there was a lot of talk about the Nazis and one member brought up the expulsions of the Germans from Eastern and central Europe. I have never read anything about this, I will admit that I have never found any sympathy with the Germans, the Blitz, Holocaust and other acts always seemed to justify a demonising of the entire nation. A German killed was not as important as the others killed.

However, I recently got talking to a Hungarian-Germn down the road and he told me how the Czechs had expelled him and his family for being ethnic Germans. I had heard about this but said that such actions, although I cannot condone them (I question myself about this part), are understandable. He flew up from his seat and began telling me that what happened to German minorities in Europe was nothing more than racism and a close brother of Nazi ideology, he told me that no only were Germans cleansed via deportation but hat the Czech had also killed thousands of Germans. That they had done all this with the consent of men like Winston Churchill, the men who had claimed to hate Nazism.

I have read a few articles on the expulsion of the German minorities, and I feel rather angry, it was nothing but full blooded racism but has been overlooked becuse it was aimed at the "Germans".
In effect, what the Allies allowed to happen was nothing better than what they had fought.

I'm not really sure of the point to this thread, other than I feel it should be discussed.

This kinda thing went all around, Bopa. Look at what happened to Japanese Americans in the U.S., while German Americans and Italian Americans walked around freely.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

This kinda thing went all around, Bopa. Look at what happened to Japanese Americans in the U.S., while German Americans and Italian Americans walked around freely.

Well, Italian-Americans and German-Americans were interned, just not on nearly the same scale.

[Husar]

They did nothing to stop it

What have you done to stop Guantanamo?

[PanzerJaeger]

Recently there was a lot of talk about the Nazis and one member brought up the expulsions of the Germans from Eastern and central Europe. I have never read anything about this, I will admit that I have never found any sympathy with the Germans, the Blitz, Holocaust and other acts always seemed to justify a demonising of the entire nation. A German killed was not as important as the others killed.

However, I recently got talking to a Hungarian-Germn down the road and he told me how the Czechs had expelled him and his family for being ethnic Germans. I had heard about this but said that such actions, although I cannot condone them (I question myself about this part), are understandable. He flew up from his seat and began telling me that what happened to German minorities in Europe was nothing more than racism and a close brother of Nazi ideology, he told me that no only were Germans cleansed via deportation but hat the Czech had also killed thousands of Germans. That they had done all this with the consent of men like Winston Churchill, the men who had claimed to hate Nazism.

I have read a few articles on the expulsion of the German minorities, and I feel rather angry, it was nothing but full blooded racism but has been overlooked becuse it was aimed at the "Germans".
In effect, what the Allies allowed to happen was nothing better than what they had fought.

I'm not really sure of the point to this thread, other than I feel it should be discussed.

It's good to know people are finally waking up to reality. The allies were truly no better, they just happened to win. Each side had honorable men who fought for their ideals, and each side showed no hesitation in playing dirty when push came to shove. Germany has no more to be ashamed of than any other nation of power.

[Fragony]

It's a shame these events got kinda hijacked by neo-nazi's, got to allow the germans to come to terms with their history. Germans suffered massivily during and after the war.

[PBI]

I am increasingly of the opinion that this sort if thing, rather than being exceptional, is more or less inevitable once somebody has been stupid enough to start a war.

Was it right to forcibly cleanse these regions of ethnic Germans? No. Does this make the Allies as bad as the Nazis? No. It was the Nazis' waging of aggressive war that led ultimately to these events, and thus they are ultimately to blame.

Yet another thing to add to the list of Adolf Hitler's crimes against the world. Not the most original scapegoat, but the correct one.

[Brenus]

“Remember those who were persecuted - all of them.”: Victims and offenders are equal? Without Nazi Germany’s aggression, who can say that the German of the Volga would have to go? Why the “Germans” had to go from Yugoslavia?

“Stalin killed people in gulags, butchered his own officer corps, starved millions during the forced collectivization of agriculture, and even sent someone to axe Trotsky a question -- in short, he butchered millions (some sources suggest he and Beria killed substantially more people than did the Nazi regime) and was willing to kill anybody who might vaguely, possibly, conceivably, become a threat to Papa Joe sometime in the next half century. He just didn't go after Jews with any particular hatred. He was a very ecumenical monster.”
Uncle Joe.
I agree. Stalin was not nor race, skin colour or gender hatred orientated. He slaughtered without discrimination all potential danger to his power, from the earlier Bolsheviks to the Red Army officers, scientists, intellectuals etc. He was a perfectly democratic butcher.

“They did nothing to stop it”: Some did. The Concentration camps were built for the Socialist and Communist Germans.

“Some seventeen million (according to some brief research) were killed by the Nazi regime, whereas Stalin's era was responsible for the deaths of between twenty and forty-three million. Just some statistics” Ah, statistic!!! What period of time? Er, 3 years for Hitler, some 30 years for Stalin. That doesn’t make it right but it puts it in perspective….

“Germany has no more to be ashamed of than any other nation of power.” Well, except Einsatzgruppen and the very specific EXTERMINATON camps, and all the Nazi System, in fact. I can’t see same in France, UK, Holland and others, even Italy. The Nazi Germany was specific and this past is shameful.

[Fragony]

I don't hold it against the germans. We did a really poor job at preventing it.

[Rhyfelwyr]

It's good to know people are finally waking up to reality. The allies were truly no better, they just happened to win. Each side had honorable men who fought for their ideals, and each side showed no hesitation in playing dirty when push came to shove. Germany has no more to be ashamed of than any other nation of power.

If we talk in terms of nations Germany has a lot more to be ashamed of than any of the Allies. Had Hitler been more successful in his expansionism, I think it is safe to say that many more would have died by the Nazi's than the Soviet Union in the resulting decades.

Of course the death of every individual German is as tragic as the death of anyone else, it is ridiculous to say they should have resisted the regime. One word and the Gestapo would have them dead.

What have the people of the US done to stop the war in Iraq? Or as Husar said the situation at Guantanamo? Does this make them responsble for what goes on there?

[Koga No Goshi]

What have the people of the US done to stop the war in Iraq? Or as Husar said the situation at Guantanamo? Does this make them responsble for what goes on there?

At the Museum of Tolerance in Los Angeles, there is this area where there's this mock-up of a little outdoor cafe with mannequinn German people having various recorded conversations. The general gist of it is "but what can we do?" I went there on a seventh grade field trip... years and years ago. And that little section of the museum addressing the old historical question of "how come the Germans didn't do anything?" has always stuck with me, because I believe the question, at least for Americans, has pretty much been answered.

[Sarmatian]

That expulsion of Germans needs to be put in perspective. Tribesy mentioned that being done in agreement with Germany. I can't say for other eastern European countries but I know that in Yugoslavia, Germans that were deported had all their property written down and they were supposed to be compensated for everything. Later, Germany and Yugoslavia agreed that Germany will compensate Yugoslavian Germans and that amount will be deducted from the war reparations Germany had to pay to Yugoslavia. So, it's not like they were thrown out without a single thought.

I wouldn't be too surprised if that was the deal with many other eastern European countries...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Panzer:

Your assessment of the Nazi regime is incorrect. While I agree that many Germans were merely fighting for their country (often with great skill and honorably), the Nazi regime was every bit as evil as that of Dhaugazvili. The programmatic murder of millions is as morally repugnant as any effort, any act in human history -- and its scale was mind-boggling.

Do you toss out such statements like a fisherman tossing chum in the water? Just to see the frenzy?

I hope so, since then I would only have to be disappointed in your choice of entertainment, rather than saddened and worried for you.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Ah, statistic!!! What period of time? Er, 3 years for Hitler, some 30 years for Stalin. That doesn’t make it right but it puts it in perspective….
.

That would be the entire Nazi regime, so from 1933-1945.

[Tribesman]

whereas Stalin's era was responsible for the deaths of between twenty and forty-three million. Just some statistics.

That isn't a statistic thats a very vague guess .

Samartian I refer to the process of deporting and settling in the Reichs newfound territory people who were German , might be partially German , might be sorta Germanish or might be able to become German with a thorough Nazi re-education policy .
After all many poles fitted into 4 varying categories of germanism and became "germans" , were they kicked out too when the poles took over the territory again , what about the all Baltic germans that Hilter swapped with Stalin , did they get kicked back to the Baltics or to German territory ?
Since all those people recieved the land and property of other people who were deported or murdered they must be removed from any fair complaint about the numbers of Germans kicked out of territory after the war .

Seamus , why bother? .

[Strike For The South]

What have you done to stop Guantanamo?

I agree with the premise of what we are doing in the war on terror. How we have been carrying it out on the other hand I have some problems with. However I am still throwing my hat in with my goverment and If I were to go to the middle east I would be fully aware of what someone might do to me simply because Im an American.

[KarlXII]

What have you done to stop Guantanamo?

Protested it, didn't vote for Bush.

[Sarmatian]

Stalin and Hitler aren't comparable. First of all most data about Stalin is from the cold war period, when it was pretty much impossible for westerners to acquire reliable data. Furthermore, nobody really bothered to verify anything because it was useful propaganda tool. Russian declassified archives show that the number is much lower but still enough to make any sane and civilized person's head spin. And considering legacy, Stalin found Russia with wooden ploughs, centuries behind the west and left it as a nuclear armed, space faring superpower. Hitler found Germany in crisis and left it in ruins.

Anyway, since when is one dictator excuse for another?



@tribesman
Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

[rvg]

And considering legacy, Stalin found Russia with wooden ploughs, centuries behind the west and left it as a nuclear armed, space faring superpower.

Absolutely. The only question is whether or not it was worth the price. Many millions perished to make it happen.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Germany has no more to be ashamed of than any other nation of power.

Well...I'd be pretty ashamed if I pranced about in a homo-erotic costume for a decade, shouting that I am the superior race, goosestepped east to enslave the Slavic untermensch and then was thoroughly, utterly and hopelessly beaten within a few months by those ill-equipped, starving, 'inferior' Slavic peasants.

There's your heroes for you.


Such a pity these loudmouth, incompetent imbeciles brought such destruction upon Germany.

[naut]

I don't hold it against the germans. We did a really poor job at preventing it.

Exactly. A lot of the issues could have been resolved if the victors of WWI had handled the peace process more effectively. And if the issues had actually been met in their infancy rather on the edge of the precipice in 1939.

[Husar]

I agree with the premise of what we are doing in the war on terror. How we have been carrying it out on the other hand I have some problems with. However I am still throwing my hat in with my goverment and If I were to go to the middle east I would be fully aware of what someone might do to me simply because Im an American.

But in our example the Iraqis have taken over Texas and send you to San Francisco after beating you up several times because you really deserve that.

Apart from that, I agree with Louis.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Exactly. A lot of the issues could have been resolved if the victors of WWI had handled the peace process more effectively. And if the issues had actually been met in their infancy rather on the edge of the precipice in 1939.

I think fascism was always going to have its little go at glory at some point, the Nazi's just combined rampant racism in theirs.

[Strike For The South]

But in our example the Iraqis have taken over Texas and send you to San Francisco after beating you up several times because you really deserve that.

Apart from that, I agree with Louis.

I may not deserve it but Im not going to sit here and ask people to feel sorry for me after my country blatant invaded and genocide another group of people.

[King Henry V]

“Remember those who were persecuted - all of them.”: Victims and offenders are equal? Without Nazi Germany’s aggression, who can say that the German of the Volga would have to go? Why the “Germans” had to go from Yugoslavia?

Did the Volga Germans ask Hitler to invade Russia, or have any influence at all on the war? Most of them were hundreds of miles behind the front line even at the furthest penetration of the German army, and afforded no assistance to the Germans. Perhaps they would have done, if they had not been deported. Nevertheless, they were deported not because they had done anything, but simply because of the fact that they were Germans. Do you think this is a justifiable? If it was right to transport them to prison camps just in case they revolted against the Soviets, does that not also justify German pre-emptive action against possible "enemies" (viz the Reichenau Order)?

Samartian I refer to the process of deporting and settling in the Reichs newfound territory people who were German , might be partially German , might be sorta Germanish or might be able to become German with a thorough Nazi re-education policy .
After all many poles fitted into 4 varying categories of germanism and became "germans" , were they kicked out too when the poles took over the territory again , what about the all Baltic germans that Hilter swapped with Stalin , did they get kicked back to the Baltics or to German territory ?
Since all those people recieved the land and property of other people who were deported or murdered they must be removed from any fair complaint about the numbers of Germans kicked out of territory after the war .

To focus on the relatively small number of Ethnic Germans who had bee subject to the various population swaps between Germany and the USSR and Italy belittles the fact that vast majority of German expellees had lived in places which their ancestors had inhabited as far back as the Middle Ages, and who had come not as pillaging warriors but as settlers and craftsmen, often at the invitation of local rulers.



As for the opinion that "many of them volunteered for Nazi German", I can only ask what you would have done. As the grandson of Sudeten Germans who were expelled after the war, I know that life for German minorities in Eastern Europe between the wars was no picnic.
In the case of the Sudetenland, their wishes were completely ignored by the peace settlement in 1919 (making a mockery of Wilson's principle of self-determination) and their attempts to break away and remain within German Austria were brutally repressed. Following centuries of Austrian rule, the Czechs wanted to exact their revenge on these minorities. The German language was attacked and the German regions were denied any autonomy.
To add to this, the Depression, of course no fault of the Eastern European governments, hit the German regions extremely badly, with huge unemployment. After twenty years of political repression and economic penury, what would you do if suddenly people seeming to be your saviour swept in, allowing you to practice your own language without hindrance, and promising a new future? Do you say "No thank you, your boots are too black and shiny for me, and I don't think you will deliver the same standard of democracy to which we have been used over the past two decades (ha-ha)."? My grandfather was a farm labourer in 1938, earning 80 Pfennig a week, and he was one of the lucky ones. After the annexation, he, like many, volunteered for the army, which offered four times as much pay, plus food, lodging and clothes. Was he wrong?

I must agree that the expulsion of the Germans from Eastern Europe after the second world war ranks among some of the worst events in the history of the 20th century in Europe. Even at the lowest estimate half a million people were killed, and the rest lost everything that they ever had. I know that female members of my family had their gold earrings torn from their earlobes by their former neighbours, and they were lucky considering they were not raped, as were millions of other German women. There can be no moral justification for such an action.

Nevertheless, as bad as the expulsion was, I will say that it can never even begin to compare with the unspeakably evil event that was the Holocaust. However, I believe that because it was such an unimaginably abhorrent action which had no precedent in history, the vast majority of the German population had no idea that such a mass programme of extermination was being done, especially information for most of them was limited to what the Propaganda Minsitry told them. True, they could see that the Jews were being persecuted, but I don't think that if I had been in their place I could even have begun to conceive that industrial scale murder was being done. What they were therefore faced with was a totalitarian government which might have murdered the odd "undesirable" in front of their eyes, and which would have wiped out their entire family if they had even begun to talk about resistance, a situation which many people have since experienced all over the world but which few have done much about. As Edmund Burke said, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". I for one do not think that such inaction should be punished on the scale of the German expulsion, which was nothing more than opportunism on the part of those who profited from it.




*****

Phew, that's both the longest and the first large backroom venture of mine for years, but this is an issue which has affected both my family and me personally, and I just wished to add something to the discussion. I have not meant to offend anyone, and I apologise in advance if I have.