No better than them

[Koga No Goshi]

I completely agree. Any nation that starts a war that it cannot win deserves what it gets. I'm just tired of hearing about Allied moral superiority, which was thoroughly pissed away in the ruins of Dresden and Nagasaki.

To be honest I don't recall very many people arguing that the Allies had overwhelming moral superiority. You're flipping the argument around a bit, you and Fragony and a few others have been tiptoing around making the assertion that what the Germans did in WWII wasn't really so bad and even if it was, it wasn't their fault, but everyone else's because of the poor diplomacy that ended (oops edit: WWI) and social movements in Europe.

You wouldn't be defending murder, would you? And can we please get over the notion that the atom bombs were used for any other reason than to influence the soviets?

You'll get no argument from me that the use of the nukes was one of the single most horrific acts in human history. And the emotional obtuseness you get from Americans when you challenge the "it was necessary, IT WAS NECESSARY!" argument (which isn't true) makes it rather pointless to try to argue with them about it most of the time. The use of the nukes had more to do with showcasing our new weapon to Russia than moving an already defeated Japan to surrender (Japan had already sent out peace feelers and offered conditional surrenders through intermediaries), though it did accomplish both goals.

Nope. I want you to realize that the Allies exterminated people for show, after they had already been defeated. How is that any better?

The difference that you keep eluding, Panzer, is that after the nukes were dropped, the U.S. didn't set up factories for the mass extermination of the Japanese people. That is not equal to saying the Allies were unquestionably moral in everything that they did. But it is an important difference and very much evidence against a claim that Nazi Germany "was no worse than the Allies, but lost the war, so history villified their actions more."

And since we're coming to terms with reality, can we please dispense with the notion that the Holocaust was anything other than a sad footnote of WW2? The vast majority of Germans and Allies did not know of the extent of the Holocaust, and were certainly not fighting for reasons having anything to do with it. Only after the war did knowledge of it reach the general populaces of these nations, yet somehow many believe that WW2 was a grand effort to save the Jews from extermination.

What you say is true, but I think what people take exception to is your constant efforts to minimize the holocaust, such as calling it "no more than a footnote." It is true that anti-Semitism was rather rife even amongst the Allies, many of whom refused Jewish refugees throughout the war. But I think you are not doing the cause of "German pride", which you seem to espouse, any favors by going around and trying to yammer at people to stop thinking the holocaust was such a big deal.