No better than them

[PanzerJaeger]

Panzer are you trying to argue a moral equivelence between the nazis and the allies, you'll find alot of sympathy from me with regards to the bad things the allies did and sympathy for the way the nazi actions are looked at, as i always say when it comes to conflicts like this, there is no black and white just a hell of a lot of gray, but even taking a step back and looking at things from all pov's not just the victors, the nazis were far far worse than the allies...

This is what I can't seem to wrap my head around. What is difference between the Holocaust and the allied mass death from above? Both events were the completely unnecessary and unjustified killing of innocents. In the case of the Germans, many involved truly believed they were doing the right thing - for the greater good, as nonsensical as it seems today. In the case of the allies, it was for terror or show, as the innocents they decimated were of defeated, impotent nations.

Hard to take you seriously anymore, PJ. Dave is still funny, but for you...it's a little dry.

I'm sorry to hear that.

In this case, trying to make the Allies into the Nazis by mentioning Dresden, while you have Coventry and Auschwitz being shuffled behind your back.

I'm not trying to make anyone into anything. You should ask yourself why the mentioning of simple facts gets you so upset.

When it comes to war crimes and their severity, I believe in quantity over quality.

While this may hold some merit if they allies had, say, killed only a few hundred people during isolated incidents, when the numbers reach into the millions, does it really matter? And if pure numbers are all you're interested in, the communists are your game. You can take your pick between the Russian or Asian variants, both killed far more than Germany.

I don't have problems with the facts, only with your interpretation of said facts. Wars are not about good guys vs bad guys. In wars there are only two sides. But if there is a war in the history of humanity that can be perceived as good guys vs bad guys it's WW2. What point are you trying to make? That Allies and Soviets committed crimes? True, you won't find much argument from me there. I spoke about it some threads here at the .Org. That Germans were mistreated in many European countries after the war? Also true, I spoke about how I perceive deportation of Germans from Yugoslavia morally wrong. That the main purpose of Dresden and Tokyo bombing was spreading of fear rather than a military goal? Once again true, and yet another thing I spoke about here.

We seem to be on the same page so far...

But to think that all this somehow absolves Nazi Germany from guilt and from all its crime is insulting and hilarious at the same time.

Here's where you are misunderstanding me. By bringing the Allies down to their historical reality, I am not bringing the Nazi's up.

Maybe most of the Germans back then didn't know about Holocaust or sick ideology that Hitler & co pursued, but I have some news for you - we're not in the 1940's anymore and we know about it. What's with the need to defend it?

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of my point. When judging past actions, it is essential to preserve historical context. My overarching goal in this discussion has not been to defend anyone, but to highlight the fact that no side would stand up in today's evolved moral environment. I take no pleasure in dredging up unflattering facts about the Allies, but sometimes the truth hurts. I owe it to my ancestors to at least make an effort to understand their condition and mindset, and so does history. Its simply not good enough to say the Nazis were evil and the Allies were good. I am sorry, but history is never that black and white.

IMO, it is important that people understand the reality of the German situation in the Second World War, and the reality of the Allied situation. Fact is - the Germans may have started the war, but the allies were no better than the axis on moral terms. The fact that the Germans committed war crimes did not force the allies to do the same. They did so of their own valition, and when their enemies were already defeated. There is no argument that can be made to justify what they did to the women and children of their defeated enemies, just as there is no argument that can be made to justify the Holocaust. We can only look at both situations in context. Most Germans did not know of the extent of the Holocaust and many of those that did believed what they were doing was for the greater good of their society, while many in the Allied populace reveled in bloodlust and didn't mind showing off their strength at the expense of their vanquished foes. If you want to take that statement of fact as some sort of defense of Nazism, that's your misunderstanding; and you wouldn't be the first...