No better than them

[Incongruous]

I find it amusing that some people are willing to overlook history, certain land sin what are Poland had been Germanic in culture for hundreds and hundreds of years, as is already said most of whom were not conquering warriors.

The expulsion was the final solution of the Eastern European governments, who had resented these poeple for wel over fifty years for being different. It was quite simply racism of, that some of you are willing to accept this illustrates for me, at least, a fundamental lack of humanity.

It was Western backed mass murder and ethnic cleansing, nothing can or should justify that, I am shocked that some on these boards who profess to be Christians take no issue with that.

[Koga No Goshi]

I find it amusing that some people are willing to overlook history, certain land sin what are Poland had been Germanic in culture for hundreds and hundreds of years, as is already said most of whom were not conquering warriors.

The expulsion was the final solution of the Eastern European governments, who had resented these poeple for wel over fifty years for being different. It was quite simply racism of, that some of you are willing to accept this illustrates for me, at least, a fundamental lack of humanity.

It was Western backed mass murder and ethnic cleansing, nothing can or should justify that, I am shocked that some on these boards who profess to be Christians take no issue with that.

You have been doing some seriously selective reading if you think anyone was saying that the expulsion of ethnic Germans or their mistreatment was a good thing or a moral thing. All anyone has argued is that within the greater context of WWII to say that these things happening makes the Allies and the Nazies equally immoral is a huge stretch.

[Incongruous]

Uhuh, what was it that Strike was saying?

No your right, the Allies did not back systematic evil, they simply stumbled into it for reasons of expediency. A character flaw which is current in the West of today.

[HoreTore]

We're only fooling ourselves if we try to distance ourselves from the crimes committed by the nazi's "because it was done by them evil nazi's". It wasn't just them. We all tried out the racial hygiene thingy. We all listed different groups of humans on a scale from "worthless" to "godlike". And some of it continued well after 1945, like gypsies being neutered and put in missionary camps to "turn the savages into humans" in Norway in the 60's(or sometime around then).

We've all done it. The nazi's just put the theory to the test on a much larger scale.

[Brenus]

“Completely irrelevant nonsense”: Sarmatian belongs to a “race” which was “genocide”. Read about Jasenovac and Stari Gradica…

“Everything I've posted is simply fact”: Interpretation of facts, in a very well known path by all the “deniers”. All what you are actually writing was said by Le Pen in France: detail of History (well footnote for you), victims are only estimation, the Allies were guilty as well and comparing an aggressive state to all others.
I know you don’t care, but can I remind you that the USA were attacked by Japan and Germany?

About communist, they killed more nazi than every body else. In fact, the communist lands were the graves of Nazis. Millions of them. Each time my communist grand father blow-up a nazi train he killed some.

“If the Germans had accomplished their goals, the Holocaust would have eventually had to come to an end as well..” They would have find somebody else to slaughter… And what about the perpetual slavery of all the Slavs?

“The nazi's just put the theory to the test on a much larger scale” JUST? And I think THAT is the difference. THEY put the THEORY in PRACTICE. I don’t care if you hate French, I will start to care if you start to exterminate.

[PanzerJaeger]

Sarmatian belongs to a “race” which was “genocide”. Read about Jasenovac and Stari Gradica…

I understand that and am trying to keep my comments respectful and on topic. Despite SwedishFish's implications, I hold no judgments about Slavic peoples. I have always found Sarmation to be an intelligent and informed poster, and I enjoy his comments.

“Everything I've posted is simply fact”: Interpretation of facts, in a very well known path by all the “deniers”. All what you are actually writing was said by Le Pen in France: detail of History (well footnote for you), victims are only estimation, the Allies were guilty as well and comparing an aggressive state to all others.
I know you don’t care, but can I remind you that the USA were attacked by Japan and Germany?

By comparing me to certain unsavory people instead of arguing my points, you simply acknowledge their validity. The allies proved themselves to be just as morally bankrupt as the Germans. That is my point. Insulting me is not a counterpoint.

About communist, they killed more nazi than every body else. In fact, the communist lands were the graves of Nazis. Millions of them. Each time my communist grand father blow-up a nazi train he killed some.

Is that supposed to make me angry? Come on, bud, you can do better. How about mentioning the slaughter of German POWs during the Normandy Campaign, or describing the manner in which partisans tortured their captives. That would be slightly more appealing bait, although it would show just how low Allied could, and did, sink.

Ok, let's put thing into historical context.

Soviet Union: military deaths - 10,700,000; civilian deaths - 11,400,000
Poland: military deaths - 240,000; civilian deaths - 2,360,000
Yugoslavia; military deaths - 446,000; civilian deaths - 514,000
Nazi Germany: military deaths - 5,533,000; civilian deaths - 1,600,000

So, all three countries that were the victims of Nazi aggression had more civilians then soldiers killed, the most extreme example being Poland who lost 10 time more civilians then soldiers. On the other hand, Nazi Germany lost almost 4 times as many soldiers as civilians.

So, bring down the allies, no problem with that. Just stop when you get to 4%.

I would have to see your source for that graph to respond in detail, but off the top of my head I can only assume that the majority of those Allied civilian casualties come from Russia and China, where displacement caused massive death tolls. Now an argument can be made that the Germans (and Japanese) had an obligation to feed and care for the civilians that came under their control, but that is a much different situation than directly killing them. I think that if you compared the number of allied civilians killed directly by axis bayonets, bullets, or bombs - that graphic would be far less disproportionate.

As for the lopsided ratio of military casualties - I would never argue that the German military was anything less than devastatingly effective.

I do understand that the chance for us to come to an agreement is very slim, so let me just say this before I quit. There are two main reasons why I disagree with you:

1. Cause and consequence - Nazi ideology was the cause of all those Allied deaths and all those German deaths were consequence of Allies fighting back.

2. Scale - the graph illustrates it better then words ever could...

Well, I would agree with your earlier statement about shades of gray. If we limit that to the Nazi and Western Allied leadership, I'm definitely willing to accept that the Nazis were of a much darker shade. (Although, as information comes to light about what FDR really knew about the attack on Pearl Harbor and when he knew it, his tint suddenly gets very much darker.)

As to your points:

1. One wrong does not justify another. Bombing German and Japanese cities was far from a necessity, it was a choice. Worse, the choice was made for reasons of terror and show. IMHO, that's hardly better conduct than was demonstrated by the Nazis.

2. My above comments address this one...

[Sarmatian]

1. One wrong does not justify another. Bombing German and Japanese cities was far from a necessity, it was a choice. Worse, the choice was made for reasons of terror and show. IMHO, that's hardly better conduct than was demonstrated by the Nazis.

2. My above comments address this one...

1. It doesn't, you're right. But there is a huge difference between revenge taken in hot blood that stopped when the momentum was lost and planned, systematic killing on an industrial scale... That's something that you should come to terms with...

2. That's from wikipedia, it was the easiest one to show on short notice. You pick a source, they won't differ that much...

[HoreTore]

“The nazi's just put the theory to the test on a much larger scale” JUST? And I think THAT is the difference. THEY put the THEORY in PRACTICE. I don’t care if you hate French, I will start to care if you start to exterminate.

We agree on that.

[Tribesman]

what a no-brainer.

I don't think you are allowed to call panzer that , its against the rules

[Rhyfelwyr]

Uhuh, what was it that Strike was saying?

No your right, the Allies did not back systematic evil, they simply stumbled into it for reasons of expediency. A character flaw which is current in the West of today.

Agreed, the talk of "the Germans" really surprised, even shocked, me as well.

I'm not sure why some people will not acknowledge the suffering of many Germans in eastern Europe. I don't know, maybe its out of a paranoid fear that those doing that are somehow neo-Nazis.

It wasn't all Black and White. The Axis nations (not all their people) were just a much, much darker shade of grey.

[Husar]

Welcome to the grey side!

[InsaneApache]

Revisionist poppycock.

The Third Reich started the war and lost. When you lose a war that you started and given the atrocities the nazis propagated they were lucky they got off lightly.

The war may not have started out as a 'just' war but it certainly ended as one.

I had a conversation with my dad recently, whos brother one one of the first British soldiers into Belsen. He came back a different man after what he had seen. There was a feeling after the war that Germany should be dismantled and turned into a meadow for sheep and cows. Understandable after what had transpired.

To equate the war as shades of grey is absurd. It was a straight choice. Democracy or tyranny. At least in the west.

It's interesting to watch the younger generation decry the behaviour of the allies after the war. It's shameful IMHO.

[Slyspy]

I think it is better to look at the different styles of occupation than the various methods of war-making.

[Incongruous]

Revisionist poppycock.

The Third Reich started the war and lost. When you lose a war that you started and given the atrocities the nazis propagated they were lucky they got off lightly.

The war may not have started out as a 'just' war but it certainly ended as one.

I had a conversation with my dad recently, whos brother one one of the first British soldiers into Belsen. He came back a different man after what he had seen. There was a feeling after the war that Germany should be dismantled and turned into a meadow for sheep and cows. Understandable after what had transpired.

To equate the war as shades of grey is absurd. It was a straight choice. Democracy or tyranny. At least in the west.

It's interesting to watch the younger generation decry the behaviour of the allies after the war. It's shameful IMHO.

Ha!

Shameful, having half of my family come from Hungary it is a duty for me to question what happened after WWII.

My Grandmother was tortured at age 13 (again at 18-19) by commies for the fact that her father was a clerk for the pro-fascist government and then the socialists, by your account, well yes it was all very horrid but hey we're not too fussed about it. I don't think you really understand the war IA , as others do, it completley and utterly ruined Hungary and (what was left of it after WWI) I feel a need to question any war which an entire civilization considers Just and Good,it is an absurdity.

The case of German civilians being deported and slaughtered is nothing but racism, I find it amusing how people still find ways of excusing racism, pathetic.

[Strike For The South]

I find it amusing that some people are willing to overlook history, certain land sin what are Poland had been Germanic in culture for hundreds and hundreds of years, as is already said most of whom were not conquering warriors.

The expulsion was the final solution of the Eastern European governments, who had resented these poeple for wel over fifty years for being different. It was quite simply racism of, that some of you are willing to accept this illustrates for me, at least, a fundamental lack of humanity.

It was Western backed mass murder and ethnic cleansing, nothing can or should justify that, I am shocked that some on these boards who profess to be Christians take no issue with that.

You start a war you need to finish. I have said in this thread that it wasnt right what the eastern goverments did but Im not going to be up in arms about it. War sucks we know that and it especially sucks if you are on the losing side. So feign your shock all you want but Im glad it was the Czechs doing this to the Germans in 45 rather than the other way around.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The nazis could've ended Allied violence against them at any given moment. Surrender, and *poof* the allied violence stops and aid replaces bombs. It was that simple.

The nazis chose to fight on. They are responsible. The nazis chose to bled Germany dry rather than give up power. All who uphold humanitarian vaues ought to decry the fate that befell Germany. But responsibility over the loss of German lives should be aimed at the nazis.

This in stark contrast to the way the nazis treated the nations they overthrew. This was when their killing really started. There is no moral equivalence. In fact, this is a grave insult to the allies.

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

On to the less friendly part. Sorry, Kukri, you are too late. I have other vows to uphold.

I have always expressed my admiration for the allied soldiers that lay buried in Normandy, and will always stand up for their honour - British, American, Canadian or otherwise.

You are gravely insulting them, Panzer, by putting them on the same moral level as the nazis, these mortal enemies of America. These murderers which the Americans so bravely fought, for which many American servicemen paid the ultimate price.

If you come here and dare insult fallen Americans like you do here, you will find in me a bitter enemy. I do not tolerate their graves desecrated, I do not tolerate their sacrifice mocked and spit upon.

No Panzer, America's fallen did not die in an attempt to show off. They died fighting for America, they died fighting for freedom. They died, and this is their eternal honour, for the freedom of another people.

Shame on you.

[Ser Clegane]

America's fallen did not die in an attempt to show off. They died fighting for America, they died fighting for freedom. They died, and this is their eternal honour, for the freedom of another people.

And in addition it should be noted that, after the war, they also received the German population with open arms to join the civilised world again*.
On a larger level there might be the argument that even that was politically motivated to keep the Western part of Germany as a buffer to the Communist countries in the East - however, the countless experiences that German citizens had with American soldiers after the war clearly show that the amazingly friendly and helpful attitude of the American G.I.'s was genuine.


* While not as completely forgiving as the Americans it should be noted that also the other Allies (even Russia) treated the German population in Germany very decently after the war considering what they had to endure at the hands of the Germans during the war.

[PanzerJaeger]

And in addition it should be noted that, after the war, they also received the German population with open arms to join the civilised world again*.
On a larger level there might be the argument that even that was politically motivated to keep the Western part of Germany as a buffer to the Communist countries in the East - however, the countless experiences that German citizens had with American soldiers after the war clearly show that the amazingly friendly and helpful attitude of the American G.I.'s was genuine.


* While not as completely forgiving as the Americans it should be noted that also the other Allies (even Russia) treated the German population in Germany very decently after the war considering what they had to endure at the hands of the Germans during the war.

Of course both sides ingratiated themselves to the Germans. It's hardly surprising considering that they both needed them during the Cold War. Also, I know of many hundreds of thousands of German soldiers who would disagree with your caveat, had they survived the gulags.

[Ser Clegane]

Of course both sides ingratiated themselves to the Germans. It's hardly surprising considering that they both needed them during the Cold War.

As I said - this might be true from a high level political perspective - it certainly was not the motivation that drove the individual soldiers. US soldiers certainly treated German citizens much better than German soldiers treated the population in Poland or Russia.

Also, I know of many hundreds of thousands of German soldiers who would disagree with your caveat, had they survived the gulags.

Yes - hundreds of thousands of German soldiers died as POWs of the Soviet Union.
Soldiers of a country that absolutely devastated the Soviet Union killing millions of civilians. Soldiers of a country that let millions of Soviet POWs die in their camps.

A million dead POWs is a terrible number, and behind each of them there is an individual fate with a grieving family (my grandfather also died in Russia) - considering what Germany did during the war to the later victors, it still seems that Germany was pretty well off after the war - even under Soviet occupation (much much more so under the Western Allies).

Comparing the unprovoked systematic murder of millions of civilians with the death of one third of the German POWs in the SU after a war that destroyed the country is indeed shameful.

[PanzerJaeger]

As I said - this might be true from a high level political perspective - it certainly was not the motivation that drove the individual soldiers. US soldiers certainly treated German citizens much better than German soldiers treated the population in Poland or Russia.

In general yes, but on an individual basis that is debatable. Of course, the conduct of the war in the West was completely different than that of the East, and the Allies were not facing a vicious partisan insurgency.

Comparing the unprovoked systematic murder of millions of civilians with the death of one third of the German POWs in the SU after a war that destroyed the country is indeed shameful.

If you don't think the German POW deaths were systematic, I've got news for you. I see nothing wrong with comparing one orchestrated mass murder with another.

Not good enough.


I'll continue to put the ball in your court. You say: 'the allies were no better than the axis on moral terms'
This I take as an intolerable insult to the Americans who lay buried in our soil. Who's sacrifice I hold in the highest esteem.


America's fallen are the moral equivalent of nazis, or are they not. Which is it Panzer? A simple yes or no will suffice. Either they are, or they are not.

Some were, and some were not. That is the peril of the broad brush mentality that you've adopted.

In comparing John McCaffrey to Michael Wittmann, or Arthur Harris to Irwin Rommel, I would say both Nazis were morally superior. The same comparisons could be made many million times over - as you cannot place that many people in neatly marked "good" and "evil" boxes.

Talk about dancing on the head of a pin.

As a member of the only allied nation left to fight the nazis after 1940, I certainly don't feel any guilt associated with the treatment of the Germans during and just after the war.

The nazis were like a big playground bully, throwing their weight around. Even after beating some of his victims to the floor they didn't stop kicking his head in.

Cue two more lads enter the playground. They take the bully to task and stop him kicking in the heads of the subjegated ones.

Then they mete out some of the same to the nazi bully, only with this caveat. When he's beaten to the ground they stop kicking. Then when the bully says he's sorry and won't do it again, they give him a hand up, dust him down, take him for a slap up meal and buy him a house.

That's the difference. Intent is all.

So all are bullies, only one of the bigger bullies is slightly nicer to the one he just beat down because his fellow bully just turned enemy. Sounds about right to me.

Panzer:

You are not the first wargamer to become enamored of things German. The mental project in which you are engaged, however, is fruitless. Do not discard notions of "right" and "wrong" to replace them with total relavism -- that path ends poorly.

Good luck, and goodbye.

As opposed to many here who seem enamored with the Hollywood version of WW2, I am only interested in historical realities. Good luck to you, as well.

[PanzerJaeger]

On to the less friendly part. Sorry, Kukri, you are too late. I have other vows to uphold.

I have always expressed my admiration for the allied soldiers that lay buried in Normandy, and will always stand up for their honour - British, American, Canadian or otherwise.

You are gravely insulting them, Panzer, by putting them on the same moral level as the nazis, these mortal enemies of America. These murderers which the Americans so bravely fought, for which many American servicemen paid the ultimate price.

If you come here and dare insult fallen Americans like you do here, you will find in me a bitter enemy. I do not tolerate their graves desecrated, I do not tolerate their sacrifice mocked and spit upon.

No Panzer, America's fallen did not die in an attempt to show off. They died fighting for America, they died fighting for freedom. They died, and this is their eternal honour, for the freedom of another people.

Shame on you.

I am sorry you feel that way Louis, and I understand where you are coming from. As I said in the beginning, there were a great many honorable Allied soldiers - and I respect them.

However, I am not willing to simply ignore the great many German soldiers who too fought for country, family, and their fellow soldiers. I am not going to sugarcoat history in order to paint the conflict in the black and white Hollywood terms of good and evil.

There were sad and horrendous atrocities committed by the Germans, both on the individual and state sanctioned levels. The exact same can be said of the Allies.

If you take the mere mentioning of the facts I've brought up in this thread as insulting to yourself or the memory of honorable Allied soldiers, your problem lies not with me, but with the historical record.

[Fragony]

I am sorry you feel that way Louis, and I understand where you are coming from. As I said in the beginning, there were a great many honorable Allied soldiers - and I respect them.

However, I am not willing to simply ignore the great many German soldiers who too fought for country, family, and their fellow soldiers. I am not going to sugarcoat history in order to paint the conflict in the black and white Hollywood terms of good and evil.

There were sad and horrendous atrocities committed by the Germans, both on the individual and state sanctioned levels. The exact same can be said of the Allies.

If you take the mere mentioning of the facts I've brought up in this thread as insulting to yourself or the memory of honorable Allied soldiers, your problem lies not with me, but with the historical record.

Nothing but fair, and that should be pretty obvious if you ask me, holocaust and ww2 should be seen as seperate events, world war 2 was inevitable.

[Koga No Goshi]

Nothing but fair, and that should be pretty obvious if you ask me, holocaust and ww2 should be seen as seperate events, world war 2 was inevitable.

But, they weren't separate. I mean, I can just arbitrarily say "well the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki should be treated as separate from WWII, because really it had nothing to do with ending the war with Japan, it was more about showing Russia and kickstarting the Cold War."

And then voila, the Allies killed a lot fewer civilians in WWII. That would be revisionist though, wouldn't it? The nuking of two Japanese cities had nothing whatsoever to do with the war against Germany, yet Panzer invokes it in a comparison of the Allies and the Germans. You can't have it both ways.

[Fragony]

But, they weren't separate.

World war 2 is really World war 1,5. Was bound to happen. The way the german army fought in world war 2 was progressive warfare at it's finest with maximum concern for civilians. The evil wasn't in the army, dear Adolf tended to get a little frustrated by the unwillingness to fight a total war.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am sorry you feel that way Louis, and I understand where you are coming from. As I said in the beginning, there were a great many honorable Allied soldiers - and I respect them.

However, I am not willing to simply ignore the great many German soldiers who too fought for country, family, and their fellow soldiers. I am not going to sugarcoat history in order to paint the conflict in the black and white Hollywood terms of good and evil.

There were sad and horrendous atrocities committed by the Germans, both on the individual and state sanctioned levels. The exact same can be said of the Allies.

Not good enough.


I'll continue to put the ball in your court. You say: 'the allies were no better than the axis on moral terms'
This I take as an intolerable insult to the Americans who lay buried in our soil. Who's sacrifice I hold in the highest esteem.


America's fallen are the moral equivalent of nazis, or are they not. Which is it Panzer? A simple yes or no will suffice. Either they are, or they are not.

[Fragony]

Not good enough.


I'll continue to put the ball in your court. You say: 'the allies were no better than the axis on moral terms'
This I take as an intolerable insult to the Americans who lay buried in our soil. Who's sacrifice I hold in the highest esteem.


America's fallen are the moral equivalent of nazis, or are they not. Which is it Panzer? A simple yes or no will suffice. Either they are, or they are not.

Why deny the germans a human side of all this. It's their tragedy as well.

[Strike For The South]

......

[King Henry V]

Not good enough.


I'll continue to put the ball in your court. You say: 'the allies were no better than the axis on moral terms'
This I take as an intolerable insult to the Americans who lay buried in our soil. Who's sacrifice I hold in the highest esteem.


America's fallen are the moral equivalent of nazis, or are they not. Which is it Panzer? A simple yes or no will suffice. Either they are, or they are not.

I would say that the average American, British or Canadian soldier was pretty much the same as the average German soldier. Both fought not because of some great belief in what the ideals they were supposedly fighting for, but because their country came calling and they couldn't refuse. True, the idealists in the Allied armies believed that they were fighting for the cause of freedom in liberating foreign countries from the yoke of an oppressive tyranny, a cause that turned out to be justified and no one is saying that they are sorry that they won. However, many in the Axis believed that they were fighting for a similar cause: for the freedom of Europe from the scourge of communism, a scourge which had threatened to destroy Europe for the past twenty years and without which fascism and national socialism would never have gained the support that it did. Had Germany won, there would not doubt have been many, albeit misguided, people in Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia who would have eulogised the fallen German soldiers for having freed them from the Soviet Union, just as you do the same for the fallen allied soldiers.

THAT is not true. Of course they knew about the massive oppression, they saw it every day and participated in it themselves! They might not have know about the industrial killings, but they sure as hell knew about the arrests, the torture, the concentration camps, etc. They knew and saw more than enough to know that their government were murdering, torturing and oppressing innocent people.

To put it another way; they knew about 100.000 of the 6 million jews killed. And that should be way more than any person requires to know that their government is a tyranny.

But they chose not to act. The vast majority, at least. You're vastly underestimating the extreme racism of those days, PJ. The question isn't whether they knew; the question is 'why should they care?'

Hundreds of millions of people in Africa, Asia, Latin America have since the war faced almost exactly the same situation as you described: persecutions, summary executions, torture, imprisonment, labour camps. Of course they knew that their governments were tyrannies. So did the Germans. Few did anything about it. Why? Because they knew that the government response would be terrible, and this was even more the case in Nazi Germany where even any murmur of a resistance was punished not only with one's own torture and execution, but that of one's family as well. The sad fact is, is that for the majority of humanity, when push comes to shove, the safety of one's family and oneself will invariably come first.

[HoreTore]

Hundreds of millions of people in Africa, Asia, Latin America have since the war faced almost exactly the same situation as you described: persecutions, summary executions, torture, imprisonment, labour camps. Of course they knew that their governments were tyrannies. So did the Germans. Few did anything about it. Why? Because they knew that the government response would be terrible, and this was even more the case in Nazi Germany where even any murmur of a resistance was punished not only with one's own torture and execution, but that of one's family as well. The sad fact is, is that for the majority of humanity, when push comes to shove, the safety of one's family and oneself will invariably come first.