No better than them

[PanzerJaeger]

What kind of argument is that supposed to be?
You are seriously using the partisan insurgency as an excuse?

Had the Western experience been the same as the Eastern, the situation would have been different. Look at how the American military conducted itself during Vietnam for a more accurate assessment how they would deal with an insurgency. Comparing those distinct parts of the war is dangerously close to apples and oranges.

Classical
You are putting words in my mouth while completely ignoring the actual statement.
Well done...

Calm down. There is no need to get hostile. Where did I put words in your mouth? It was not my intention. The deaths of all those POWs was just as systematic as anything the Nazis did.

[Incongruous]

Revisionist poppycock.

The Third Reich started the war and lost. When you lose a war that you started and given the atrocities the nazis propagated they were lucky they got off lightly.

The war may not have started out as a 'just' war but it certainly ended as one.

I had a conversation with my dad recently, whos brother one one of the first British soldiers into Belsen. He came back a different man after what he had seen. There was a feeling after the war that Germany should be dismantled and turned into a meadow for sheep and cows. Understandable after what had transpired.

To equate the war as shades of grey is absurd. It was a straight choice. Democracy or tyranny. At least in the west.

It's interesting to watch the younger generation decry the behaviour of the allies after the war. It's shameful IMHO.

Ha!

Shameful, having half of my family come from Hungary it is a duty for me to question what happened after WWII.

My Grandmother was tortured at age 13 (again at 18-19) by commies for the fact that her father was a clerk for the pro-fascist government and then the socialists, by your account, well yes it was all very horrid but hey we're not too fussed about it. I don't think you really understand the war IA , as others do, it completley and utterly ruined Hungary and (what was left of it after WWI) I feel a need to question any war which an entire civilization considers Just and Good,it is an absurdity.

The case of German civilians being deported and slaughtered is nothing but racism, I find it amusing how people still find ways of excusing racism, pathetic.

[Koga No Goshi]

The case of German civilians being deported and slaughtered is nothing but racism, I find it amusing how people still find ways of excusing racism, pathetic.

I don't see anyone defending racism. But I think that purporting Germans to be the victims overall of the circumstances and events of WWII, when they were the ones engaged on a systematic implementation of a racist ideology to mass exterminate undesirables, is very highly questionable.

It is like a KKK member walking down a street in downtown Philly, after lynching some black people, getting attacked, and saying he was a victim of racism.

Now granted, not each and every individual German had anything to do with Nazi policies. But again, as was said earlier, we have the Nazi Government to blame for what the German people suffered in very large part. Even if some countries that never liked their German minorities just used Hitler's aggression as an excuse to purge German minority communities, the German government still handed them a pretty darn good pretext.

[Brenus]

“My Grandmother was tortured at age 13”: Horrible what happened to her. Not right, I agree. But it doesn’t make her father supported regime's ideology right.
Do you want Sarmantian describe to you what the Hungarian Nazi did in Novi Sad to the Jews?
“The case of German civilians being deported and slaughtered is nothing but racism”: so you still don’t know what is racism…

[Incongruous]

I don't see anyone defending racism. But I think that purporting Germans to be the victims overall of the circumstances and events of WWII, when they were the ones engaged on a systematic implementation of a racist ideology to mass exterminate undesirables, is very highly questionable.

It is like a KKK member walking down a street in downtown Philly, after lynching some black people, getting attacked, and saying he was a victim of racism.

Now granted, not each and every individual German had anything to do with Nazi policies. But again, as was said earlier, we have the Nazi Government to blame for what the German people suffered in very large part. Even if some countries that never liked their German minorities just used Hitler's aggression as an excuse to purge German minority communities, the German government still handed them a pretty darn good pretext.

People are not fully accepting the role the Allies had in the systematic ethnic cleansing and mass murder of Germans in Eastern and central Europe. They are defending these actions as acceptable, this is defending racism. It is nothing like a KKK member whop has lynched some black people, blah, blah, blah, that is absurd and you know it.

"We" as you put it allowed the Czechs to do what they wanted and get away with it, we supported ethnic cleansing, you are accepting that are you? You think that it was ok? If not, condemn it and everyone who took a direct role in it that it was disgusting that th Allies are guilty, if you don't I assume you are in some way unable to disagree completley with ethnic cleansing.

You are shooting holes in the precept that WWII was fought to stop mass muder and injustices like ethnic cleansing, of coarse subsequent history proved that the U.S, U.K and France love to commit crimes against humanity all the time.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

so you still don’t know what is racism…

If something is done to you because of your race, it is racism. If Germans were deported for being German, which they were, it is racism. I don't think he's the one who needs to know what racism is.

[Incongruous]

“My Grandmother was tortured at age 13”: Horrible what happened to her. Not right, I agree. But it doesn’t make her father supported regime's ideology right.
Do you want Sarmantian describe to you what the Hungarian Nazi did in Novi Sad to the Jews?
“The case of German civilians being deported and slaughtered is nothing but racism”: so you still don’t know what is racism…

You do not what or who my Grandfather was, after the war he supported the socialists (not the commies, who eventually shot him), he worked as a clerk in a regime willing to pay him some money and stop the commies from rolling in, his wife was a Jewess he was a German-Hungarian. I doubt he was a Nazi.

Ok Brenus, lets call it racially motivated forced transportations and removals shall we?
Yes I can see painted on the side of a wonderfull Czech army truck now!

[Koga No Goshi]

People are not fully accepting the role the Allies had in the systematic ethnic cleansing and mass murder of Germans in Eastern and central Europe. They are defending these actions as acceptable, this is defending racism. It is nothing like a KKK member whop has lynched some black people, blah, blah, blah, that is absurd and you know it.

I would not and have never defend that. If on any large scale true ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans just for being German occurred, I have to profess my American knuckle-deep knowledge of pan-Europe during WWII. I thought we were talking about expulsions... not ethnic cleansing. How this jumped from "some countries kicked out German minorities" to "everyone else was engaging in ethnic cleansing on the Germans", is a little confusing to me.

[Incongruous]

I would not and have never defend that. If on any large scale true ethnic cleansing of ethnic Germans just for being German occurred, I have to profess my American knuckle-deep knowledge of pan-Europe during WWII. I thought we were talking about expulsions... not ethnic cleansing. How this jumped from "some countries kicked out German minorities" to "everyone else was engaging in ethnic cleansing on the Germans", is a little confusing to me.

Umm, the expulsions were committed in tangent with mass muders thus the description of ethnic cleansing.

I was not saying everyone wanted to kill Germans, I am talking about the Czechs and the Allies.

[Koga No Goshi]

Umm, the expulsions were committed in tangent with mass muders thus the description of ethnic cleansing.

I was not saying everyone wanted to kill Germans, I am talking about the Czechs and the Allies.

Well as far as Allies aside from some community leaders and such being detained, I know for sure you can't argue any such thing happened on large scale with the U.S., despite a sizeable and politically active German population which still attended church and community organizations in Latin/German language. It did happen to the Japanese, well, expulsion and detainment at least. But I mean come on Bopa.. yes, such a thing happening to the Germans just for being an unwanted German minority is indeed racist, but this happening in Czech and a handful of other places rises to the occasion of being equal to what the Nazis did throughout all of Europe? That's what people are taking exception to--- and you and others are misinterpreting it as "us saying the Allies did no wrong."

[Rhyfelwyr]

Kicking someone out for being x ethnicity = not a moral thing to do

But in the greater context of the war? To point out that this happened and then insist that the countries doing so made the anti-Nazi war effort every bit as immoral as Auschwitz or the final solution is offensive to many, and, I believe, logically unsupportable.

As far as I can see PJ is the only one who might be suggesting that.

I think that EMFM and myself are just a little bit surprised at blanket statements regarding 'the Germans' and how 'they got what was coming to them'. When comparing the regimes, Nazi Germany was evil, and the Allies just committed some nasty acts out of necessity (well arguably but I think so), it was a total war after all. But that does not mean that the individual German citizens deserved to suffer. Earlier on in this thread some posters didn't seem to show them any compassion, apparently only because they were Germans.

[Incongruous]

Well as far as Allies aside from some community leaders and such being detained, I know for sure you can't argue any such thing happened on large scale with the U.S., despite a sizeable and politically active German population which still attended church and community organizations in Latin/German language. It did happen to the Japanese, well, expulsion and detainment at least. But I mean come on Bopa.. yes, such a thing happening to the Germans just for being an unwanted German minority is indeed racist, but this happening in Czech and a handful of other places rises to the occasion of being equal to what the Nazis did throughout all of Europe? That's what people are taking exception to--- and you and others are misinterpreting it as "us saying the Allies did no wrong."

What? The Allies sat down with the Czechs and said, "yeah go ahead", in actual fact we don't really care about ethnic cleansing or mass murder, we never started the war because of it and in fact we are off to go and do some of our own now.

People have been stating that what happened was justified or acceptable and we can just forget about it. Bollocks, if we do that we are accepting that ethnic cleansing is just fine in some cases.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What? The Allies sat down with the Czechs and said, "yeah go ahead", in actual fact we don't really care about ethnic cleansing or mass murder, we never started the war because of it and in fact we are off to go and do some of our own now.

Source?

If such a meeting occurred and there are records of who said what etc., then such crimes would still be actionable. Denounce those responsible and see them brought to justice.

If you're "summarizing" the actions of some individuals, then you aren't necessarily summarizing their intent correctly. Crimes of negligence are usually held to be less morally reprehensible then those conducted with intent -- so gauging intent correctly matters.

If you are attempting to make a claim along the following lines:

Action "A" was deemed evil; Action "B" is also evil; therefore Action A and B are the same.

You fail to account for degrees of evil, a concept with which most persons agree.



Your ardent emphasis on the term "ethnic cleansing" seems to me to indicate that you are attempting to draw some link in moral equivalence with recent occurrences in the former yugoslavia. This suggests that your posts may have an ulterior motive.

I could, of course, be incorrect. It is possible that you are merely annoyed with one series of regrettable incidents from European history and brought them to our attention as a result of your vexation -- without attempting any other rhetorical "turn."

[Koga No Goshi]

What? The Allies sat down with the Czechs and said, "yeah go ahead", in actual fact we don't really care about ethnic cleansing or mass murder, we never started the war because of it and in fact we are off to go and do some of our own now.

People have been stating that what happened was justified or acceptable and we can just forget about it. Bollocks, if we do that we are accepting that ethnic cleansing is just fine in some cases.

As someone whose existence would not have been possible in a post-Axis victory world, I would not condone the full extent of everything bad that happened to any German in WWII, but I would say I am pretty glad that if WWII was inevitable it concluded the way that it did. My sticking point would be that I do feel the use of nuclear weapons on civilian populations was unsupportable, but given that the Allies/U.S. never sought to mass exterminate the Japanese people, I would still shy very much away from saying this act, while singularly horrific, made the Allies just like the Axis "except that they won instead of lost."

I am not really sure why it's difficult to accept someone saying "yes, that was racist and immoral, but a huge war was going on across the globe, with ethnic cleansing and mass murder of huge proportions going on across continents, and out of the two sides, the one vastly less directly embracing of genocidal agendas came out the winner, and I'm glad." I'm part Native and also through my dad's side of the family from Hawaii, related to Japanese people as well who were here in the U.S. during WWII, so you'd never get a fullthroated conviction out of me that the U.S. or any other western power has never done vicious biologically racist things. But I think out of all of the unreported or underacknowledged human tragedies in the world, I have but you and Panzer's word to take that what happened to Germans was one of the worst, if not the worst. I mean, try to talk to the typical American about genocide conducted on Native Americans.... or talk to Japan about their own role in WWII. These sorts of national denials of crimes is not exactly unique to anyone, not even the Germans, Bopa.

[Tribesman]

They are defending these actions as acceptable, this is defending racism.

No , they are not defending them as acceptable , its just pointing out that your premise that these actions were just the same as the Nazi atrocities is a pile of bollox .
Its simple really , on the one hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because they view their victims as sub-human who were responsible for capitalism , communism ,the economic crisis , tuberculosis , the plague , germanys defeat in WWI , bad agricultural yields and 101 other made up "reasons".......and on the other hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because these genocidal maniacs had come to their countries as aggresors and slaughtered lots and lots of people for purely bollox reasons .
Both sides did nasty stuff , but they are in no way equivalent . So your attempt to portray them as equal is pure unadulterated bollox .

Shameful, having half of my family come from Hungary it is a duty for me to question what happened after WWII.

Yes and interesting questions they might be , like how was it that the deportations of Hungarians from czechoslovakia was matched by deportations of chechs and slovaks from Hungary ? apart from one little discrepency ...the little discrepancy being the third of the total Hungarian deportees who didn't count in the reciprocal population exchange because they had moved to Czecoslaovakia after Hungary had taken over part of the territory in agreement with the Nazis .
So I suppose that third kinda comes back to the 500,000 new German settlers put out of eastern territories , they must be removed from the equation to make it fair as they shouldn't have been there at all .After all you cannot complain about people losing their home and job through deportation when they had only just stolen it themselves .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

No , they are not defending them as acceptable , its just pointing out that your premise that these actions were just the same as the Nazi atrocities is a pile of bollox .
Its simple really , on the one hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because they view their victims as sub-human who were responsible for capitalism , communism ,the economic crisis , tuberculosis , the plague , germanys defeat in WWI , bad agricultural yields and 101 other made up "reasons".......and on the other hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because these genocidal maniacs had come to their countries as aggresors and slaughtered lots and lots of people for purely bollox reasons .
Both sides did nasty stuff , but they are in no way equivalent . So your attempt to portray them as equal is pure unadulterated bollox .


Yes and interesting questions they might be , like how was it that the deportations of Hungarians from czechoslovakia was matched by deportations of chechs and slovaks from Hungary ? apart from one little discrepency ...the little discrepancy being the third of the total Hungarian deportees who didn't count in the reciprocal population exchange because they had moved to Czecoslaovakia after Hungary had taken over part of the territory in agreement with the Nazis .
So I suppose that third kinda comes back to the 500,000 new German settlers put out of eastern territories , they must be removed from the equation to make it fair as they shouldn't have been there at all .After all you cannot complain about people losing their home and job through deportation when they had only just stolen it themselves .

Good Lord! I am in complete agreement with a Tribesman post. Whoever is watching over the seventh seal, please give it a quick check!

[Koga No Goshi]

Good Lord! I am in complete agreement with a Tribesman post. Whoever is watching over the seventh seal, please give it a quick check!

Tribesman is like, uncannily always right on pretty much everything. Even if someone doesn't like what he's saying. ;) He has conquered and should be named of this realm.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

The Nazi government in power, should be, in no means forgiven for their deeds. However, like it has been expressed here, the allies and other specific regimes were also prone to horrific acts as well.

Eisenhower did not do much for the prisoners just to name one of the most "loved" figures that perpetrated such crimes...

[Incongruous]

No , they are not defending them as acceptable , its just pointing out that your premise that these actions were just the same as the Nazi atrocities is a pile of bollox .
Its simple really , on the one hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because they view their victims as sub-human who were responsible for capitalism , communism ,the economic crisis , tuberculosis , the plague , germanys defeat in WWI , bad agricultural yields and 101 other made up "reasons".......and on the other hand you have people doing really nasty stuff because these genocidal maniacs had come to their countries as aggresors and slaughtered lots and lots of people for purely bollox reasons .
Both sides did nasty stuff , but they are in no way equivalent . So your attempt to portray them as equal is pure unadulterated bollox .


Yes and interesting questions they might be , like how was it that the deportations of Hungarians from czechoslovakia was matched by deportations of chechs and slovaks from Hungary ? apart from one little discrepency ...the little discrepancy being the third of the total Hungarian deportees who didn't count in the reciprocal population exchange because they had moved to Czecoslaovakia after Hungary had taken over part of the territory in agreement with the Nazis .
So I suppose that third kinda comes back to the 500,000 new German settlers put out of eastern territories , they must be removed from the equation to make it fair as they shouldn't have been there at all .After all you cannot complain about people losing their home and job through deportation when they had only just stolen it themselves .

Well we are talking about murder Tribes, I'm sure they would have been delighted to have only lost their jobs.

I never said that the Allies were the same as the Nazis, I was pointing out that the issue of German deportations and mass murders have been treated by me and people I know as a non-issue, I have sought to redress this issue. I thought it might make an interesting topic for the backroom. If I am guilty of misreading or misunderstanding then so are you, and you can slap that big bollocks back across your face.

As for Hungary, yeah I was always for defending those people, I am Nazi don't you know?
Look Tribes, I am not going to defend the Nazis, you want to use the Bollocks attack go point at our resident fascist. You can keep talking about 500,000 not really owning land, fine but for that to justify the killing of those who did own some land I find issue with.

If anyone doubts that the Allies were in on it, go read about Potsdam and Tehran, they dealt with everyone there. Have some Cossacks who want freedom? Just put them on a train to nowhere!
Yes, we the Allies are fighting for Justice! We'll do whatever it takes to achieve it...

[PanzerJaeger]

I think that EMFM and myself are just a little bit surprised at blanket statements regarding 'the Germans' and how 'they got what was coming to them'. When comparing the regimes, Nazi Germany was evil, and the Allies just committed some nasty acts out of necessity (well arguably but I think so), it was a total war after all. But that does not mean that the individual German citizens deserved to suffer. Earlier on in this thread some posters didn't seem to show them any compassion, apparently only because they were Germans.

Hate to nit pick, but I don't see the necessity of Dresden or Hiroshima. Thats a tired debate though...

Action "A" was deemed evil; Action "B" is also evil; therefore Action A and B are the same.

You fail to account for degrees of evil, a concept with which most persons agree.

If the discussion has (d)evolved into a comparison of degrees of evil, I think my point has been taken better than I expected.

[Koga No Goshi]

Hate to nit pick, but I don't see the necessity of Dresden or Hiroshima. Thats a tired debate though...

I would agree with you, I think the thing you get out of order though is that the Allies didn't start the war hoping to flatten Dresden and Hiroshima to fulfill their ideologies. :) They are actions that, while very questionable and controversial, entered the realm of "rational possibilities" only because of WWII. Germany, on the other hand, had no legitimate external grievance upon which to justifiably start mass invading Europe or killing Jews.

[Sarmatian]

“My Grandmother was tortured at age 13”: Horrible what happened to her. Not right, I agree. But it doesn’t make her father supported regime's ideology right.
Do you want Sarmantian describe to you what the Hungarian Nazi did in Novi Sad to the Jews?
“The case of German civilians being deported and slaughtered is nothing but racism”: so you still don’t know what is racism…

Don't have to do that, I can describe what Hungarian Nazis did to members of my family. Much more personal and detailed. I mean, it's not like Bopa is the only one who had a grandfather...

You are shooting holes in the precept that WWII was fought to stop mass muder and injustices like ethnic cleansing, of coarse subsequent history proved that the U.S, U.K and France love to commit crimes against humanity all the time.

No, WW2 was fought because some deluded people decided that it is not cool to give away your country and your life just because an insane power freak and his clique decided that they're racially superior and entitled to both. Strangely enough, some would think that's good enough reason to fight it.

This is getting ridiculous. Are we now at the point where allies are guilty of defending their nations because they didn't know the full extent of the Holocaust? Fighting back when someone attacks you is not good enough? You have to know that there is a Holocaust somewhere else to have a right to defend yourself or your allies?

[Incongruous]

Source?

Your ardent emphasis on the term "ethnic cleansing" seems to me to indicate that you are attempting to draw some link in moral equivalence with recent occurrences in the former yugoslavia. This suggests that your posts may have an ulterior motive.

I could, of course, be incorrect. It is possible that you are merely annoyed with one series of regrettable incidents from European history and brought them to our attention as a result of your vexation -- without attempting any other rhetorical "turn."

Well you can call it what you like, it will not detract from what happened. Ulterior motive? You trying to wave a fascism card at me? I'm not sure.

Your second analysis would be more correct, I am interested in the topic and brought it to the backroom, though it might seem too subversive? Even apologetic to the Nazis? If so that is not my game.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Panzerjäger and the others who argue against the assertion: Our thoughts on the subject are too rational and are therefore thrown out. Give up, unless debates are more with facts and less with emotions. My opinion anyway....

[Strike For The South]

Panzerjäger and the others who argue against the assertion: Our thoughts on the subject are too rational and are therefore thrown out. Give up, unless debates are more with facts and less with emotions. My opinion anyway....

I am fully aware bad things happened to the Germans. Im not debating with emotions at all. The Germans should be happy for any mercy anyone showed them. The relativism in this thread is mind boggling. The Allies could've have done much worse and cooler heads prevailed even after the Germans had there last machismo filled hurrah. Did Americans Brits and Russians always act humanely? No The shoe went on the other foot ,its war thats why it sucks because people die and sometimes they are tortured raped and killed thats why you shouldnt start a war simply because you think you are better than everyone else.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

I am fully aware bad things happened to the Germans. Im not debating with emotions at all. The Germans should be happy for any mercy anyone showed them. The relativism in this thread is mind boggling. The Allies could've have done much worse and cooler heads prevailed even after the Germans had there last machismo filled hurrah. Did Americans Brits and Russians always act humanely? No The shoe went on the other foot ,its war thats why it sucks because people die and sometimes they are tortured raped and killed thats why you shouldnt start a war simply because you think you are better than everyone else.

Right because that's why the war started. I'd better just leave now....

[Strike For The South]

Right because that's why the war started. I'd better just leave now....

Why did it start then? Hitler definitely had a vision yes? Enlighten me rather than leave unless you cant back your assertion.

[Incongruous]

Right because that's why the war started. I'd better just leave now....

Im with Strike here, I beleive that was the main reasoning behind the German war effort.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Uggh....damn you backroom!!

I'll concede the fact that a certain feeling that Germany was better was partially behind the war. But which nation goes to war thinking themselves inferior then their enemy? Would be a bit illogical I would say...

It was not the major driving force for war. After World War I, Germany was treated as one of the sole perpetrators, when it was not even the aggressor. A series of alliances dragged them into the war, and with enemies on both sides the aggressive attacks you say by the Germans were only part of their strategy to deal with enemies on both borders.

After the war the Versailles treaty not only crippled Germany economically, but humiliated them. They had land carved away from them for a number of other countries. Hitler came to power and immediately changed everything. Not only did he help to eliminate corruption in Germany, he was one who would stand up to the French and British. He started a vast form of reform for public roads etc (autobahn) which created numerous jobs and began to stimulate the economy as well as war production.

Germany slowly made her military strong again to restore the honor of the German people. They brought Austria back to them in the Anschluss and annexed several areas with high German ethnic majorities. As evident by the end of the war, they were at a series lack for natural resources, which they needed to get elsewhere (scandanavia for iron ores and precious metal, Romania for oil etc).

The German people were tired of humiliation and wanted to rebuild an empire based on expansionalism and militarism, I will not disagree. But to say it was based on Hitler's idea of lebensraum and an inferior race is absurd. In fact, much of the belief of the inferior race came from the far more outspoken Himmler than Hitler ever said (and in fact Hitler often made fun of him for this).

Not justifying an aggressive attitude, but it wasn't based on a notion of a superior race...

[Strike For The South]

Uggh....damn you backroom!!

I'll concede the fact that a certain feeling that Germany was better was partially behind the war. But which nation goes to war thinking themselves inferior then their enemy? Would be a bit illogical I would say...

It was not the major driving force for war. After World War I, Germany was treated as one of the sole perpetrators, when it was not even the aggressor. A series of alliances dragged them into the war, and with enemies on both sides the aggressive attacks you say by the Germans were only part of their strategy to deal with enemies on both borders.

After the war the Versailles treaty not only crippled Germany economically, but humiliated them. They had land carved away from them for a number of other countries. Hitler came to power and immediately changed everything. Not only did he help to eliminate corruption in Germany, he was one who would stand up to the French and British. He started a vast form of reform for public roads etc (autobahn) which created numerous jobs and began to stimulate the economy as well as war production.

Germany slowly made her military strong again to restore the honor of the German people. They brought Austria back to them in the Anschluss and annexed several areas with high German ethnic majorities. As evident by the end of the war, they were at a series lack for natural resources, which they needed to get elsewhere (scandanavia for iron ores and precious metal, Romania for oil etc).

The German people were tired of humiliation and wanted to rebuild an empire based on expansionalism and militarism, I will not disagree. But to say it was based on Hitler's idea of lebensraum and an inferior race is absurd. In fact, much of the belief of the inferior race came from the far more outspoken Himmler than Hitler ever said (and in fact Hitler often made fun of him for this).

Not justifying an aggressive attitude, but it wasn't based on a notion of a superior race...

So they lost one war and felt they needed to start another to regain "honor"? Still a poor excuse and still a mindset of German superiority. All countries were hurt after WWI