No better than them

**Koga No Goshi** · 10-29-2008, 19:03

Originally Posted by Fragony

Even the people signing the treaty after WW1 knew that they only sealed the inevitable occurance of the second. If WW2 was about the jews, ok, but it wasn't it, it was about territory. The evilisation of the germans is to me a severe lack of understanding of what a cruel and savage place it is we live in, and that this can happen everywhere, anytime, and to everyone, once set into motion, nothing can stop it. So better understand it instead of just condemning it.

You would get no argument from me that bad foreign policy today creates the wars of tomorrow. But I'm curious Fragony... do you hold the U.S. and the west responsible for its interventions in the Middle East, their histories of interference, propping up and arming dictators, aiding revolutions, covert sabotage, political subterfuge, when it comes to the state of the Middle East today, the use of terrorism, the hostility towards the west?

I've seen no consistency in this argument you or Panzer are applying. It seems to apply only in the case of Germany during WWII.

**Fragony** · 10-29-2008, 19:19

Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi

You would get no argument from me that bad foreign policy today creates the wars of tomorrow. But I'm curious Fragony... do you hold the U.S. and the west responsible for its interventions in the Middle East, their histories of interference, propping up and arming dictators, aiding revolutions, covert sabotage, political subterfuge, when it comes to the state of the Middle East today, the use of terrorism, the hostility towards the west?

I've seen no consistency in this argument you or Panzer are applying. It seems to apply only in the case of Germany during WWII.

Why look for consistancy in situations that are completily different, it's the idiotic notion that there is something to be learned from history when history has proven again and again that there is no such thing as historical consistancy, and that excesses such as the holocaust can happen under any circumstances, regardless of ideology or ethnicity; that is the only concistancy there has ever been, there isn't any cruelty men isn't capable of.

**Brenus** · 10-29-2008, 23:44

“Exactly, pinning this on the germans is unfair it's a crime of europeans.”
Nope.
The free European fought against Nazism. And even the occupied and collaborationists one didn’t create extermination camps. Well, except the Croats of Ante Pavlovic who even add someone on the list to slaughter, the Serbs.
All European countries had anti-Semitism, but it never went is so much violence.
The genocide is totally German (ok, and Croats) with the active complicity of the traitors in each occupied country.

**LittleGrizzly** · 10-30-2008, 01:58

I've seen no consistency in this argument you or Panzer are applying. It seems to apply only in the case of Germany during WWII.

I mentioned this earlier to panzer and got no answer but tbh it stuck in the throat even more when i saw fraggony defending the conditions germans were lead to....

I have no problems with you views in this topic... i agree to a certain extent... but they seem very inconsistent with other views expressed in topics on muslims....

**Alexanderofmacedon** · 10-30-2008, 04:36

Ironic little find: In November of 1940 when Molotov went to Germany for a sitting and talks with German government officials he and his staff instructed the German silverware (upon eating dinner with Hitler and Ribbontrop) to be boiled first to remove the inferior German germs!

And this is when they were 'friends'...

**KarlXII** · 10-30-2008, 05:33

Originally Posted by Alexanderofmacedon

Ironic little find: In November of 1940 when Molotov went to Germany for a sitting and talks with German government officials he and his staff instructed the German silverware (upon eating dinner with Hitler and Ribbontrop) to be boiled first to remove the inferior German germs!

And this is when they were 'friends'...

And? This is about the consequential actions against Germans in the late-war era. If you wish to discuss Soviet racism, genocide and political persecution, feel free to open a new thread.

I've said it before, I will be happy to continually say it:

"Yeah, but they did it too!" does not excuse war crimes.

Not for the Nazis, Allies, or Soviets. When it comes to the Western Allied and Nazi war crimes, they cannot be compared. To me, the severity of war crimes is measured on the amount of people killed and the reasons. It's eays to see German war crimes far outweigh Western Allied.

**HoreTore** · 10-30-2008, 10:16

Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Not for the Nazis, Allies, or Soviets. When it comes to the Western Allied and Nazi war crimes, they cannot be compared. To me, the severity of war crimes is measured on the amount of people killed and the reasons. It's eays to see German war crimes far outweigh Western Allied.

The timing is also pretty damn important. The allies killed when they battled the germans, then they stopped. The germans continued for 5 years after their invasions.

**Husar** · 10-30-2008, 12:59

Originally Posted by SwedishFish

Not for the Nazis, Allies, or Soviets. When it comes to the Western Allied and Nazi war crimes, they cannot be compared. To me, the severity of war crimes is measured on the amount of people killed and the reasons. It's eays to see German war crimes far outweigh Western Allied.

If you measure it like that, I can show you some simple math:

Nazis: truly believed jews to be evil (supported by the fact they put a lot of ressources into it) + killed several millions

Allies: killed more people overall (we mentioned stalin, like it or not but he was an ally) + simply selfish reasons to gain political advantage

I would conclude that the Allies were actually far worse. and just taking the western allies is hardly fair, if you ally with the devil, you're with the devil, now be a teamplayer and take that beating.

It's interesting how nowadays when you murder someone and you can be proven to be mentally ill and that you really believed that person had to die for the better of humanity, some will say you are a poor guy and need help in a mental hospital. However, when Hitler seems to have done the same (hard to prove I know), he's the most evil man on earth and everybody would like to rip him into pieces and every comparison with any other person is absolutely outrageus. Well, yeah, so he had gas and trains and could industrially murder people, that just means he was able to use his available ressources to best effect, a good trait in modern industries btw. I'm not saying it wasn't a horrible thing to do and he must have been truly sick in his head (or evil, but I thoughtwe all agreed that he really believed in what he did so prolly didn't see himself as evil) but to say it was worse than killing even more people with guns just because it was industrial is simply emotional appeal IMO.
And I thought that is a bad thing in a rational argument...

**Alexanderofmacedon** · 10-30-2008, 13:38

Originally Posted by SwedishFish

And? This is about the consequential actions against Germans in the late-war era. If you wish to discuss Soviet racism, genocide and political persecution, feel free to open a new thread.

I've said it before, I will be happy to continually say it:

"Yeah, but they did it too!" does not excuse war crimes.

Not for the Nazis, Allies, or Soviets. When it comes to the Western Allied and Nazi war crimes, they cannot be compared. To me, the severity of war crimes is measured on the amount of people killed and the reasons. It's eays to see German war crimes far outweigh Western Allied.

Talking about the thought that Germans thought themselves superior than "untermensch", whereas this shows some of the same thinking reversed. I just found it while reading a book, was not meant to be an arguement, simply a "fun" fact.