CIVIL WARS/ANCIENT

[Pontius Pilate]

I have a question, in ancient times when a faction fought against itself how could the two opposing sides tell the difference between their own troops and the enemy's? For example, post marian legions all look very similar in appearance, so how in the midst of battle could they avoid friendly fire (or friendly slashing?). I am guessing it would be very chaotic? Maybe the troops would rally under a certain banner or something? Does anyone have any ideas?

[||Lz3||]

IIRC romans used shield patterns

[Pontius Pilate]

IIRC romans used shield patterns

wait, what does IIRC stand for?

[Ignopotens]

If I Recall Correctly

[Maion Maroneios]

Recall/Remember it's the same. Anyway, yeah I guess they had different shieldpatters, tunic colors, plume colors etc.

Maion

[Ibn-Khaldun]

So.. Rebellion against Senate would look like this: Commander of a legion declares himself Imperator. This means that ALL of his 6000-7000 men have to change their tunics and shields(or just paint a new shieldpattern). When they finally have done that they have to face 3-4 Senate Legions who didn't have to go through this make-up process!

[GodEmperorLeto]

Standards for different legions weren't perfectly uniform. I think plumes and tassles might have had different colors. And shield patterns varied. In other words, if you knew your fellow legions and their markings, you'd know whether they were friend or foe.

[Dutchhoplite]

Hmmm, i'm wondering how the different Seleucid factions would distinguish themselves in their civil wars.

Any ideas??

[Celtic_Punk]

perhaps the same way? different regiments different patterns. just like how today we have units like 101st airborne with the screamin eagle, or the winged dagger of the SAS.

[Conradus]

And probably there were a lot of friendly casualties too.

[Maion Maroneios]

Certainly there would be, but that happened also during wars with other peoples.

Maion

[O'ETAIPOS]

First of all the battles were not that chaotic as it may seem.
Armies generally kept battle lines, and so it was easy to tell where the friends were. Broken lines usually meant quick rout for the broken side - that's why major armies (almost) never fought in forests, mountains or other broken ground. Fighting there was left for skirmishers and other light troops, who were accustomed to fight without formation. But even they fought in more or less loose groups divided by a bit of empty space

[Dutchhoplite]

perhaps the same way? different regiments different patterns. just like how today we have units like 101st airborne with the screamin eagle, or the winged dagger of the SAS.

That *could* be the case with certain elite units. My idea is that the others units used simply decorated (maybe some generic symbol also used/seen on coins) or just plain shields.

[machinor]

If you try to imagine two Hellenistic Diadochi armies facing each other with basically 2 lines of phalanxes facing each other... well there is not that much of a chance of phalangites attacking the wrong soldiers. ;) Battle lines were usually quite clearly drawn. If the enemy show's up from any other direction than your front, then it's a quite distinctive sign, that you should forget about fighting and run. That's why flanking was such an effective tactic and battle discipline was so important.
One might find it far more difficult to distinguish between friend or foe in modern civil wars, I think.

Regarding Roman identification... each legion (post-marian and imperial... don't know about polybian) had some kind of distinct legion patterns, symbols or even their legion's number on their shields. I recall a passage in a Roman text about a battle between Vitellus' and Vespasian's forces where it is mentioned that 2 of Vespasian's men took the shields of fallen soldiers of a Vitellian legion and thus managed to get to an enemy siege engine (artilley or something like that) and use it against the Vitellians. However I can't remember which author and text that was in.

[Aemilius Paulus]

The only function of the plume in battle was to identify each cohort. The horsehair would be dyed, and each color would stand for a certain unit. I do remember reading that usually during the Punic Wars, the Roman Hastati would wear very large and high plumes just to intimidate the enemy. The high plumes supposedly made the illusion of the Hastati being taller, which was somewhat true actually. A fine idea, but I am not sure how long the plume would last in battle...

The tunic and the sleeves of the legionnaire's clothing was dyed as well to color-code each cohort, or so I have read.

Oh, and yes, the battles weren't usually chaotic. Usually.

[Pontius Pilate]

so the legionaires wore colored tunics? I thought dyes were expensive in ancient times and tunics were usually the colored of undyed cloth ex. tan, grey, brown. also, each legion had different shield designs and patterns? I thought that almost all had the gold eagle wings with lighting bolts on red background shield(post -marian and imperial) like in EB?

Oh, and yes, the battles weren't usually chaotic. Usually.

lol. reminds you of how in almost all ancient warfare movies the lines always break and the hero is always in the midst of the fray cutting down enemies left and right, but never commits friendly fire. now it is interesting to know that, that didn't usually happen.

[Aemilius Paulus]

so the legionaires wore colored tunics? I thought dyes were expensive in ancient times and tunics were usually the colored of undyed cloth ex. tan, grey, brown. also, each legion had different shield designs and patterns?

Not all dyes were expensive. The purple dye was, but the rest could usually be derived from the flora/fauna around the immediate Roman Empire/Republic or even Italy.

I thought that almost all had the gold eagle wings with lighting bolts on red background shield(post -marian and imperial) like in EB

There is practically no evidence for that. It could have been used by some units, but highly unlikely as widely as it is portrayed being used today. The shield insignias were most likely different for each legion.

EDIT: Why are you still labeled as "Junior Member"? I thought that went away after one's 20th post.

[Pontius Pilate]

There is practically no evidence for that. It could have been used by some units, but highly unlikely as widely as it is portrayed being used today. The shield insignias were most likely different for each legion.

EDIT: Why are you still labeled as "Junior Member"? I thought that went away after one's 20th post.

really? no eagle wings with lighting bolts...damn. hey aren't they in EB though on the post marian and imperial legions?

so you're saying I shouldn't be a "Junior Member" anymore...damn. someone is selling me out here on the forums...lol

[Aemilius Paulus]

hey aren't they in EB though on the post marian and imperial legions?

That's an educated guess based on rather hazy data, but heck, it sure beats leaving shields blank and it looks splendid too!

As for the Junior Member thing, I guess you can PM MarcusAureliusAntoninus if you are really burning to find out why your current state is what it is.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

You get upgraded from Junior Member to Member when you have enough posts and are noticed by an administrator. Posting in the main areas of the .org are the best ways to get noticed if it matters to you.

[Ludens]

Didn't both Ceasar and Pompey issue passwords before the battle of Pharsalus in order to prevent confusion during the battle? Or was that just to identify enemy patrols and such?

[SwissBarbar]

i find the scene of "ROME" quite realistic, the battle @ philippi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4xq_-zABMc

[Pontius Pilate]

Didn't both Ceasar and Pompey issue passwords before the battle of Pharsalus in order to prevent confusion during the battle?

what do you mean by "issued passwords before the battle in order to prevent confusion during the battle"?? you don't mean that the legionaries where whispering to each other while the guy next to him was being hacked to death, do you?


EDIT: not trying to make fun of you here Ludens, just asking.

[desert]

Wasn't red dye fairly expensive?

[Lovejoy]

I thought red dye was one of the cheapest?

[Aemilius Paulus]

I thought red dye was one of the cheapest?

Yeah, its called slit the guy's jugular vein! Just kidding.

No, red was not the cheapest and bright colors in general were always rarer, not to mention that it was not until the advent of synthetic dyes that most of today's colors appeared. The Romans had access to plants/insects that made any kinds of dye, except of course the famous purple dye, which is the one that could only be gathered from certain shells in certain areas, and the shells were each no larger than 5 mm. Brown and black dyes were the cheapest.

Red was fairly expensive, but to wear red clothing or accessories was almost unheard of in Romans, as if I am not mistaken, wearing red meant that you were marked for death, which is why gladiators often wore read. It would be preposterous to assume that the superstitious soldiers would ever consider red clothing. So this might just mean that red Julii RTW-type legionaries were anachronistic. I am not however sure how long this superstition persisted in its serious form.

[Gleemonex]

what do you mean by "issued passwords before the battle in order to prevent confusion during the battle"?? you don't mean that the legionaries where whispering to each other while the guy next to him was being hacked to death, do you?


EDIT: not trying to make fun of you here Ludens, just asking.

I don't know how it would work historically, but modern military protocol for night patrols (in the West at least) is to have both a bivouac password [1] and a running password [2]. It's not hard to imagine something similar in ancient times.

So, amusingly enough [3], you DO actually run through the forest loudly whispering "strawberry! strawberry! strawberry!" or whatnot.

-Glee

------------------
[1] to answer a challenge when approaching a bivouac
[2] when you're being chased by the enemy and need to spit out something quick on the go, and don't want to betray the bivouac password
[3] It's almost a given in combat training that recruits will laugh when first taught about this concept.

[Tarkus]

Didn't both Ceasar and Pompey issue passwords before the battle of Pharsalus in order to prevent confusion during the battle? Or was that just to identify enemy patrols and such?

Yes, I've seen this before in books I've read on the subject (specific references not on hand, unfortunately). And I've also read plenty of accounts of bloodlust-induced "friendly fire" ("friendly gladius thrust"?) casualties during the Civil War battles between Caesar and Pompey and their commanders...