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Thread: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Two big things;
    The level of oil produced in Venezuela has fallen by a quarter in the last ten years.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Venezuela's oil output slumps under Hugo Chavez
    Venezuela's daily oil production has fallen by a quarter since President Hugo Chavez won power, depriving his "Bolivarian Revolution" of much of the benefit of the global boom in oil prices.

    By Jeremy McDermott in Caracas
    Last Updated: 7:26AM BST 13 Oct 2008

    To win allies and forge an anti-American front, Mr Chavez sells oil to friendly countries at low prices. Ironically, the only big customer buying Venezuelan oil at the full market price is the United States, which the president routinely denounces as the "Empire".

    "As production falls, the sales to the US become more important," said Pietro Donatello, an oil analyst from Latin Petroleum in the capital, Caracas. "Only the US is paying the full amount for Venezuelan oil and in cash, the rest are in some kind of barter agreements."

    The state oil company, PDVSA, produced 3.2 million barrels per day in 1998, the year before Mr Chavez won the presidency. After a decade of rising corruption and inefficiency, daily output has now fallen to 2.4 million barrels, according to OPEC figures. About half of this oil is now delivered at a discount to Mr Chavez's friends around Latin America. The 18 nations in his "Petrocaribe" club, founded in 2005, pay Venezuela only 30 per cent of the market price within 90 days, with rest in instalments spread over 25 years.

    The other half - 1.2 million barrels per day - goes to America, Venezuela's only genuinely paying customer.

    Meanwhile, Mr Chavez has given PDVSA countless new tasks. "The new PDVSA is central to the social battle for the advance of our country," said Rafael Ramirez, the company's president and the minister for petroleum. "We have worked to convert PDVSA into a key element for the social battle."

    The company now grows food after Mr Chavez's price controls emptied supermarket shelves of products like milk and eggs. Another branch produces furniture and domestic appliances in an effort to stem the flow of imports. What PDVSA seems unable to do is produce more oil.

    Venezuela has proven reserves of 80 billion barrels, but estimates suggest that it may possess 142 billion barrels - more than anywhere else except Saudi Arabia. But the crude is of low quality and must be upgraded before it can be shipped. There are only three upgrade units currently operating, processing only 600,000 barrels per day.

    "There is a bottleneck in the Venezuelan production system," said Mazhar al-Sheridah, 68, an oil expert at the Central University of Venezuela. "It will cost at least $32 billion to build another three upgrading units and take some five years, meaning that Venezuelan production is stuck at current levels for a while yet."

    All this means that Venezuela has missed much of the benefit from the oil boom and, now that prices are falling, Mr Chavez faces huge financial problems. Nobody is sure at what point his government would be unable to pay its bills, but most sources consulted believe this would probably happen if oil falls to $80 a barrel. Yesterday, oil was trading at $79.80.


    Venezuela is having an increasingly hard time providing basic electrical services to its people.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Oil powerhouse Venezuela struggles to keep lights on

    By Brian Ellsworth Brian Ellsworth – Wed Oct 22, 11:49 pm ET

    SAN FELIX, Venezuela (Reuters) – Despite having some of the world's largest energy reserves, Venezuela is increasingly struggling to maintain basic electrical service, a growing challenge for leftist President Hugo Chavez.

    The OPEC nation has suffered three nationwide blackouts this year, and chronic power shortages have sparked protests from the western Andean highlands to San Felix, a city of mostly poor industrial workers in the sweltering south.

    Shoddy electrical service is now one of Venezuelans' top concerns, according to a recent poll, and may be a factor in elections next month for governors and mayors in which Chavez allies are expected to lose key posts, in part on complaints of poor services.

    The problem suggests that Chavez, with his ambitious international alliances and promises to end capitalism, risks alienating supporters by failing to focus on basic issues like electricity, trash collection and law enforcement.

    "With so much energy in Venezuela, how can we be without power?" asked Fernando Aponte, 49, whose slum neighborhood of Las Delicias in San Felix spent 15 days without electricity -- leading him to block a nearby avenue with burning tires in protest.

    Just next door, Carmen Fernandez, 82, who is blind and has a pacemaker, says she has trouble sleeping through sultry nights without even a fan to cool her.

    Experts say Venezuela for years has skimped billions of dollars in electrical investments, leaving generation 20 percent below the level necessary for a stable power grid and increasing the risk of national outages. Officially Venezuela has a capacity of 22,500 megawatts for a population of 28 million people, but a sizeable proportion is not working, analysts say.

    And while Chavez has won praise for investing in health and education, his government has done little to repair local distribution systems that deliver electricity to end users, from barrio residents to business and industries.

    'GOD HEARD ME'

    Pastora Medina, a legislator representing San Felix and nearby cities suffering chronic power problems, this month tried to bring the issue up in the national Congress in Caracas, but the legislature's leadership refused to let her speak.

    Several hours later, as the legislature discussed a South American integration plan created by Chavez, Congress itself lost power for around 10 minutes.

    "Congress wouldn't listen to me, but God must have," Medina said with a chuckle as she recounted the incident later at her office in San Felix.

    Though it is a key oil exporter, most of Venezuela's power comes from hydroelectricity generated in dams in the southeast, near Brazil, and sent to the rest of the country. The remainder comes mainly from aging oil-fired plants.

    The transimission system is also suffering from underinvestment, which makes it vulnerable to the failures that caused this year's blackouts.

    The government has responded by building dozens of tiny local plants that generate a fraction of a percent of national consumption, a model known as "distributed generation" used in Cuba, where a U.S. embargo impedes electrical development.

    But to keep up with demand, Venezuela needed to add 1,000 megawatts of new generation capacity every year for at least the last five years, but instead it has installed only about 350 MW a year.

    "We have to reach the most remote villages with the system of distributed generation," Chavez said in recent speech, inaugurating a generator in a town with deficient power.

    His government has also promised to accelerate new generation and boost transmission grid investment.

    BARRIO IMPACT

    But critics say these small power plants are political quick fixes that avoid tackling the thorny problems of boosting generation and fixing decrepit distribution systems.

    "We need a clear energy policy, because the policy we have is not sustainable," Andres Matas, a former planning chief for a state power company. "This is a problem for the entire country."

    He said this will require investment in local distribution systems, speeding up generation projects stalled for years by bureaucracy and lifting state-imposed price controls that keep tariffs at about 20 percent of what U.S. residents pay.

    It will also require collecting fees from millions of barrio residents who illegally link their homes to the power grid with improvised and dangerous lines -- a move not likely to be popular with a government that depends on barrio votes.

    Even as he enjoys strong support for his oil-financed social development campaign, polls show Chavez sympathizers are losing patience with the national and local politicians' inability to tackle bread-and-butter issues.

    Chavez last year fired up his supporters with a wave of state takeovers including the nationalization of electricity operations, among them Electricidad de Caracas, which was majority owned by U.S.-based AES Corp.

    But his supporters now seem more concerned about deteriorating service than the state ownership.

    Chronic power problems take the strongest toll in barrios like those of San Felix -- still bastions of Chavez support -- where power surges routinely burn out home appliances.

    "Our refrigerators have burned out so we can't shop for the week, we can only shop for one day at a time," said Nestor Pacheco, 39. "The situation is serious."

    (Reporting by Brian Ellsworth; Editing by Eddie Evans)


    I guess 21st century socialism is just as worthless as the original brand. And, of course, the people suffer.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    So, Chavez is a failure. Can't say that I'm surprised.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Classist. How dare you use this as proof? The reason Venezuela's is having so much trouble is because America keeps meddling in her affairs. If we just butted out like we were supposed to then Chavez could institute what he really wanted to instead of having to keep one eye on us. UGH
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    Upstanding Member rvg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Classist. How dare you use this as proof? The reason Venezuela's is having so much trouble is because America keeps meddling in her affairs. If we just butted out like we were supposed to then Chavez could institute what he really wanted to instead of having to keep one eye on us. UGH
    We are the universal bogeyman.
    "And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman

    “The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by rvg View Post
    We are the universal bogeyman.
    Yup and our bogeys are ruining Venezuela. Its the newest in an old game of American subjugation in Latin America.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    I guess 21st century socialism is just as worthless as the original brand. And, of course, the people suffer.

    Out of interest if there was a big finaincial crisis in say a big important country, say this country was conservative, would this mean that 21st century conservatism is worthless. side note in this hypothetical big important country people are suffering... losing thier homes ect.

    will comment on the rest in a bit, just wanted to point out the easy flaw first... keeping up beating that strawman well your waiting for opposing views... i think you've almost got him!
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    Things Change Member JAG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    ... lol.
    GARCIN: I "dreamt," you say. It was no dream. When I chose the hardest path, I made my choice deliberately. A man is what he wills himself to be.
    INEZ: Prove it. Prove it was no dream. It's what one does, and nothing else, that shows the stuff one's made of.
    GARCIN: I died too soon. I wasn't allowed time to - to do my deeds.
    INEZ: One always dies too soon - or too late. And yet one's whole life is complete at that moment, with a line drawn neatly under it, ready for the summing up. You are - your life, and nothing else.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    For the nteenth time, the sub prime mortgage fiasco came from a market heavily distorted by government regulations and benefits to certain companies.

    Fannie and Freddie didn't show the failure of capitalism, because they are not free market companies.

    EDIT: JAG, that all you got? I was at least expecting some hot air about Chavez standing up for the people and related BS.

    CR
    Last edited by Crazed Rabbit; 10-23-2008 at 19:27.
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Poor management, as much as I love to bash socialism I don't have a reason right now.

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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    I guess 21st century socialism is just as worthless as the original brand. And, of course, the people suffer.

    Out of interest if there was a big finaincial crisis in say a big important country, say this country was conservative, would this mean that 21st century conservatism is worthless. side note in this hypothetical big important country people are suffering... losing thier homes ect.

    will comment on the rest in a bit, just wanted to point out the easy flaw first... keeping up beating that strawman well your waiting for opposing views... i think you've almost got him!
    I would like to point out that the US is alot more socialist than people would like to believe. Im not saying a fully laissez-faire economy would work Im just saying giving rich people 700 billion dollars when they fail isn't what Adam Smith had in mind.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    For the nteenth time, the sub prime mortgage fiasco came from a market heavily distorted by government regulations and benefits to certain companies.

    This was my point exactly, i can't put the finaincial crisis down to conservatism any more reliabily

    I think one of the biggest socialism haters on this board put it best

    Poor management, as much as I love to bash socialism I don't have a reason right now.


    I would like to point out that the US is alot more socialist than people would like to believe.

    I wasn't trying to claim the finiancial crisis is because of conservatism, i believe mine and cr statements are eqaully false, i just made the statement to show the logical fallacy of cr's statement...
    In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!

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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    For the nteenth time, the sub prime mortgage fiasco came from a market heavily distorted by government regulations and benefits to certain companies.

    Fannie and Freddie didn't show the failure of capitalism, because they are not free market companies

    CR
    Freddie and Fannie weren't the only causes of the global credit meltdown. Your statement isn't correct; a lack of regulation has hurt us too. I would dare to say that less regulation has hurt us more more. Credit Default sweeps and Predatory Lending/Idiotic Loan Taking are two examples of things that need heavily regulated.

    PS: Sorry i never got back to you about the other stuff in the meltdown thread. You appeared to be partially right in saying that purchases of the assets wasn't the best idea. A cash injection in the form of direct loans served better.
    Last edited by Ice; 10-23-2008 at 20:12.



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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Kush View Post
    Freddie and Fannie weren't the only causes of the global credit meltdown. Your statement isn't correct; a lack of regulation has hurt us too. I would dare to say that less regulation has hurt us more more. Credit Default sweeps and Predatory Lending/Idiotic Loan Taking are two examples of things that need heavily regulated.

    There were and are plenty of regulations on the books. Enforcing existing regulations -- and prosecuting fraud vigorously -- is all the system has ever needed. Neither was done assiduously.

    "Predatory Lending" should be addressed as fraud. "Idiotic Loan Taking" is a caveat emptor deal. Or are you seriously suggesting that we should somehow "regulate" what financial choices a free citizen makes for themselves?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Poor management, as much as I love to bash socialism I don't have a reason right now.
    Socialism causes bad management.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

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    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
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    Default Re : Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    That other socialist oil state - Norway - strangely seems to be doing just fine. Meanwhile, capitalist Columbia is its usual unfortunate self.
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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Kush View Post
    Freddie and Fannie weren't the only causes of the global credit meltdown. Your statement isn't correct; a lack of regulation has hurt us too. I would dare to say that less regulation has hurt us more more. Credit Default sweeps and Predatory Lending/Idiotic Loan Taking are two examples of things that need heavily regulated.

    PS: Sorry i never got back to you about the other stuff in the meltdown thread. You appeared to be partially right in saying that purchases of the assets wasn't the best idea. A cash injection in the form of direct loans served better.
    All the regulation in the world cannot redress the problems brought about by an abundance of low IQ stupidity and the fallout from a culture that has inculcated fiscal irresponsibility for the better part of three to four decades.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

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  17. #17
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    There were and are plenty of regulations on the books. Enforcing existing regulations -- and prosecuting fraud vigorously -- is all the system has ever needed. Neither was done assiduously.
    Go on about the existing regulation

    "Predatory Lending" should be addressed as fraud.
    Well it's quite hard to determine what is predatory and what wasn't exactly. If fraud was the case, then it should be prosecuted.

    "Idiotic Loan Taking" is a caveat emptor deal. Or are you seriously suggesting that we should somehow "regulate" what financial choices a free citizen makes for themselves?
    Yes I am. Some people are simply idiots. You should not be allowed to take out a loan you cannot possibly afford, even if the lender agrees to it. As you have seen, this causes a lot of problems.



  18. #18
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Spino View Post
    All the regulation in the world cannot redress the problems brought about by an abundance of low IQ stupidity and the fallout from a culture that has inculcated fiscal irresponsibility for the better part of three to four decades.
    I'm a realist and I realize that it will not solve all of problems. However, forward thinking and supervised regulation under experts can go a long way in helping.

    I have yet to hear anyone address credit default sweeps. I'd like to hear why people think they need more or less regulation.

    Edit: Anyone aware of the Glass-Stegal Depression Era Act? What do you guys think of it's repeal? I'd have to agree it was good exisiting legislation that needed to be tweaked. It basically forbid any one company from being an investment banker, a banker, an insurance agency, and one more that I don't recall.
    Last edited by Ice; 10-23-2008 at 21:00.



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    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    That other socialist oil state - Norway - strangely seems to be doing just fine. Meanwhile, capitalist Columbia is its usual unfortunate self.
    Just like a socialist America would do better than a capitalist Central African Republican, or "socialist" Sweden is doing better than capitalistic Bangladesh.



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    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    That other socialist oil state - Norway - strangely seems to be doing just fine. Meanwhile, capitalist Columbia is its usual unfortunate self.
    I would attribute that to culture and leadership
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Wow thats amazing , an Opec country that is always pushing for a reduction in production of oil is producing less oil than it was in the late 1990s ...stunning isn't it .
    Hold on maybe there is something in this ...errrrr......yeah there must be something .....errrrr.....late 1990s ....errrrrr....oh thats when Opec boosted production before cutting it again isn't it .
    Hey rabbit you should have waited , not only did they vote to cut procuction again this month they are having another meeting next month on cutting production further ....if only you had waited you could have announced a bigger reduction in oil production for Venezueala

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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Surely the man with more oil 20 years from now will be King?
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Wow thats amazing , an Opec country that is always pushing for a reduction in production of oil is producing less oil than it was in the late 1990s blah blah blah
    Nope, today's OPEC production levels are about the same as 1998. Not Venezuela, though.

    And maybe he's pushing for quota reductions because he can't even reach his own.

    Considering that selling oil to the US supports the entire country, I don't think Chavez'd be pumping ~1,000,000 bbl/day less than the quota by choice.

    But maybe the article and all the reports about the struggling Venezuelan oil industry are wrong.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  24. #24

    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post
    Wow thats amazing , an Opec country that is always pushing for a reduction in production of oil is producing less oil than it was in the late 1990s ...stunning isn't it .
    Hold on maybe there is something in this ...errrrr......yeah there must be something .....errrrr.....late 1990s ....errrrrr....oh thats when Opec boosted production before cutting it again isn't it .
    Hey rabbit you should have waited , not only did they vote to cut procuction again this month they are having another meeting next month on cutting production further ....if only you had waited you could have announced a bigger reduction in oil production for Venezueala
    Somehow all of the other OPEC countries managed to make huge money during the run-up in prices, despite production cuts.

    I don't know why you constantly dance around defending Chavez. His little experiment is an embarrassment to all who hold leftist views.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Wow Rabbit thinks that the country that pushed for oil production cuts in 1998 didn't want to cut oil production .
    Nice thing about the quotas though , can you explain why Saudi which under US pressure boosted production still doesn't meet its quota ?
    Then can you explain why many of the other Opec countries don't meet their quota either ?
    And then can you explain why many of the other Opec countries have quotas that exceed their capacity ?
    But then I suppose that might require a little too much thought for you to manage
    Perhaps you could go for an easy one , just explain the basics of the quota system used by Opec

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Bah CR, this is still the 20th century brand of socialism. If you want to look at 21th century socialism, take a peek at scandinavia, for example. And we're doing great(the rock in the middle of nowhere called iceland excluded).


    even though you already knew that, and started this thread purely for the troll factor....
    Last edited by HoreTore; 10-24-2008 at 07:35.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela


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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Or are you seriously suggesting that we should somehow "regulate" what financial choices a free citizen makes for themselves?
    Um, don't we do that anyway? Isn't that the reason we put caps on interest rates credit cards are allowed to charge? Isn't that why companies are forced to share information with shareholders? (In a true free market, you would choose between public companies that are transparent and those that are not, and the market would sort it out).

    The kids and I love to visit our local socialist center on Saturday mornings.

    -edit-

    Say, would anyone like to make the argument that loan sharks exist because we "somehow 'regulate' what financial choices a free citizen makes for themselves?"
    Last edited by Lemur; 10-24-2008 at 15:57.

  29. #29
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by yesdachi View Post
    I would attribute that to culture and leadership
    So, you're basically saying that capitalism and socialism are going to yield the same results? Or that if Norway embraced capitalism, it would be utopia?

    By all means, I don't like socialism, but this just silly.
    Runes for good luck:

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  30. #30
    Yesdachi swallowed by Jaguar! Member yesdachi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Re : Socialism at Work In Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    So, you're basically saying that capitalism and socialism are going to yield the same results? Or that if Norway embraced capitalism, it would be utopia?

    By all means, I don't like socialism, but this just silly.
    It’s not silly. A good, positive culture will flourish under nearly any form of government as long as it has a good leader; Norway seems to have both a positive culture and a decent leader.

    It also doesn’t hurt that they have a decent cash resource.
    Peace in Europe will never stay, because I play Medieval II Total War every day. ~YesDachi

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