Redux: Battle & Tactics

[Axalon]

As the title suggests, this thread is all about battles & tactics in Redux – whatever the aspect. Personally, I feel this can be the most interesting thread of them all - provided enough activity and posts of course – at least for me, as I find this stuff especially interesting…


While posting here, please consider:

• Try to strictly focus on tactics here and stay away from strategy-stuff in this thread. Strategy is covered elsewhere - for a reason. To distinguish the two, lets roughly say that Strategy is everything that happens and can be found somehow on the strat-map in Redux. Tactics is typically everything that concerns and what happens or can happen on the battle-map. Its different things and should be kept apart, for the sake of clarity.
• Try to provide basis and grounds to support your claims, whenever possible. If no substantial basis is provided to support whatever claims you make here, take at least the time to point that out for all (before somebody does it for you, right?). If it really is just your own opinions/impressions you’re posting here somehow, be very clear that it is just that and little else. Everybody wins that way. These practices ensures that most information here can be easily used, processed and measured by all players/visitors, regardless their needs and motives for searching information here. At the same time, standing general problems like confusion, flawed-, skewed- and doubtful information is actively fought and hopefully kept to a minimum by these practices. Obviously, that is desirable for us all.
• Try to stay on topic somehow at all times, if nothing else, as a simple courtesy to all readers of this thread. Personal chit-chat and off-topic-blabla that all too often litters threads here at the Org in general are usually very annoying to plow through while searching for actual information. Keep in mind that information is usually our primary currency here - the reason why most people come and visit here in the first place.
• Have fun!

- A

[Obliqueattack]

On expert the AI gets +4 to morale in battle and its combat effectiveness is increased by 30%.
(30%being around 75%of the increase you get from 1 valour upgrade. (Source Frogbeastegg guide to METW)
On expert, I've noticed quality 100 man spear units become almost invincible no matter which mod you play. I remember playing BKB as the crusaders. On one part of the battlefield, I was fighting a single byzantine skutatoi unit (100 man high quality spears). I followed accepted wisdom (swords beats spears doesn't it??) and attacked with two 60 man chivalric men at arms units. I think I forgot to extend my cma's lines so they were 4 men deep, but my two units still overlapped the skutatoi. My 2 units routed after killing about 25 of their 100 men. The 75 skutatoi marched on, so I charged better swords at them (40 templar footknights. The skutatoi beat my 40 templars too. By then the skutatoi were down to 25 men and went off to attack my general.

Any way before you flame me, I haven't forgotten this is Redux!!
I'm playing Redux expert Spanish now and 60 regular foot with swords can't beat 100 Moorish spear (all things being equal valour etc) (those Moorish dudes are disciplined as well). It doesn't seem to matter if the spear are moving also (I believe then they lose their ranks bonus)
This is a problem when you can't outnumber the Moors. Regular foot are probably your best swords infantry for quite a long time; problem is the Moors attack with huge stacks of 100 spearmen outnumbering you!!
In my last battle I tried to outnumber the Moors on their flank at least. I charged in 2 units of regulars in wedge into the one 100 man Moorish spear, but we still lost. Even when outnumbered they can fight for ages; that +4 plus disciplined keeps em going long enough for help to arrive eg Black Guard! Moorish bodyguards!!
I find missiles in combination don't help much either.
Perhaps I should use the Longbow!

[William the Silent]

I know, these moslim sword and spear are normally superior to others. Very hard to beat.
I always try to let them attack me and fight defensive battle against them (the roman tactic). Make sure I wear them out before they get to me. I use two or three good long range archer units and target their general (or elite units). If you kill the general they will break sooner or later. Once my archers are done I move in more sword units.
Outflank them and attack in their back with cavalry after all their infantry is involved in melee.

It's hard to beat these dudes.
Several times I have given up the battle and retreated (in orderly conduct ). Then attacked again in other turn, slowly wearing them out.

This is actually what I enjoy in games: the challenge to find a way to win. You have about 500 years to do that with Redux.

Maybe Axalon should give out prizes . Like a date with one of the princesses after beating the Moors or Saracens .

[Axalon]

Hi guys and welcome to this part of the castle....

Obliqueattack: No worries I am not going to fry you, but I am going to ignore all stuff that isn’t redux because it simply is not relevant here (the circumstances for battle in those versions are too different from redux. It is not a mere chance that I set up this thread you know). No sir, no frying today. Instead I commend you for starting off this thread!


“I'm playing Redux expert Spanish now and 60 regular foot with swords can't beat 100 Moorish spear (all things being equal valour etc) (those Moorish dudes are disciplined as well). It doesn't seem to matter if the spear are moving also (I believe then they lose their ranks bonus)”

Now, your presented problem strike me as fairly obvious, you can’t use a single Regular Infantry unit and hope to beat a Moorish Infantry unit as long as valour and all that are the same. Your story here shows that with all clarity. So you’ll have to either upgrade them or do something else. As simple as that. It is a question of available troops, allocating resources and cost if you ask me. What you are describing is a classic example of allocating wrong tactical resources for the wrong places (granted that you don’t always have even that luxury). It seems quite obvious to me at least. Thus I would do something else and I suggest that you to do the same.


“This is a problem when you can't outnumber the Moors. Regular foot are probably your best swords infantry for quite a long time; problem is the Moors attack with huge stacks of 100 spearmen outnumbering you!!”

Well you can’t expect to outnumber the Moors as Spain that would simply being hoping for too much. Expect the opposite and adjust your strategy and tactics accordingly. Hence you need to make other plans and use other types of troops. It’s that simple really.


“In my last battle I tried to outnumber the Moors on their flank at least. I charged in 2 units of regulars in wedge into the one 100 man Moorish spear, but we still lost. Even when outnumbered they can fight for ages; that +4 plus disciplined keeps em going long enough for help to arrive eg Black Guard! Moorish bodyguards!!”

Concentrating on a flank is a good tactic but it will only work for a limited time. Once your time is up, you will have to move your troops out of there or drown in enemies. All this under the assumption that the enemy have numerical superiority and it is real soldiers you are fighting. When facing fighting against the odds you simply cannot afford to face the enemy head on because you’ll probably just get destroyed that way. As the above battle example shows, mobility is key and you should strive to never allow the enemy to use its full force against you. If you allow that to happen you fight on the enemys terms and that usually is a bad idea when you are outnumbered. Essentially you are forced by necessity to force the enemy to fight on “your terms” or at least more favourable term for you.


“I find missiles in combination don't help much either.”

I actually find that very hard to believe, my guess is that; if you feel that way you simply don’t use the archers in the right way or simply have not enough of them. I dare to say that reduxes projectile system is the most leathal to date! All other versions isn’t even close! So something is definitely wrong with this picture. Have you tried concentrated fire? The moors do have shields, granted, but they are not immune to arrows! Perhaps you should try crossbows? At any rate, archers is probably one of Spains more obvious weaknesses thus you should consider to hire mercenary archers because they are quite good actually.


“Perhaps I should use the Longbow!”

Well, apart from everybody else I actually leave that choice to you...


In an overall sense I think that if you find Spain too hard to play you should play another faction instead. There is no prestige here, prestige is silly, play on the level that suits you and be happy about that instead! Spain is difficult faction to play in a universal sense. Spain set on “Expert”-level is simply not for everyone and it is not intended to be either. Besides this is not the original! This is redux! You cannot expect to have the same impressive results as in the original because redux is a lot more unforgiving and demanding even if you don’t play Spain!

Personally I wait for my royal infantry (and spearmen), in the mean time I use knights. With these you can fight superior forces and especially if they are upgraded and have lots of moral bonuses (churches and stuff like that). High valour is very helpful also and a favourite of mine. But in the end of the day you must be a decent commander as well otherwise it will be hard.

At any rate, if you can’t handle the Moorish onslaught play some other faction instead! Nobody will think any less of you for doing that, it – is – ok – you – know...


---------
William: Overall I think that your suggestions are both good, viable and interesting. One thing that especially caught my interest is the fact that you, quite correctly, pointed out here is that one don’t have to win every battle! Something that might not be an obvious choice for many perhaps, still it might be just the thing to do! Sometimes you might fight just to destroy as much as possible for the enemy. Just to wear them down a bit or perhaps there is some target units that needs to be cleared out in battle before the big attack! However this is something that strike me as only advisable while you got buffer zones to work with.

Maybe Axalon should give out prizes . Like a date with one of the princesses after beating the Moors or Saracens .

I’ll ask the girls if they are up for it....

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Any other comments here? Perhaps a “counter-reply” from you Obliqueattack?!?


- Cheers

[Obliqueattack]

To William:
Sorry so brief, but the same as Axalon said really. -Excellent suggestions that I haven’t tried before.

To Axalon:
“What you are describing is a classic example of allocating wrong tactical resources for the wrong places…….. So you’ll have to either upgrade them or do something else”

Point taken: I’ve often gone into battle without paying attention to enemy valor; a sometimes fatal mistake as I’ve finally realized!! Weapon, morale and armor bonuses need careful consideration too.

“Well you can’t expect to outnumber the Moors as Spain that would simply being hoping for too much.”
I don’t mean overall troop numbers per faction- I mean in a single battle.
Until 100 man Royal Spear and Royal foot can be produced, the only good troops the Spanish have are in blocks of 40 or 60 which find it difficult to compete with Moorish blocks of 100. The Moors have lots of these early one, and tend to crush these smaller 40/60 man units.

“Expect the opposite and adjust your strategy and tactics accordingly. Hence you need to make other plans and use other types of troops. It’s that simple really.”

So yes, you are right --change tactics: concentrate on getting Royal spear Royal Infantry into production as soon as possible. Perhaps don’t attack the Moors too early on. Sometimes the Moors send emissaries wanting to break off hostilities – so they can be reasoned with!!
I’ve found the Portugese and Aragonese to be softer targets until better troops can be built.

”mobility is key and you should strive to never allow the enemy to use its full force against you”
Again good advice when attacking, but I’m not sure how I could do this when defending except to run away all over the battlefield.

“I find missiles in combination don't help much either.”
Perhaps it’s just me, but I’ve never been too impressed with missiles in MTW* in general. I can remember winning too many battles where enemies had armies with a lot or even a few missile units. I’ve always found that slugging it out decides most battles along with terrain, morale, valor and death of a general. (*vanilla and other mods; you see its sometimes necessary to talk about other versions; they shape our experience and perceptions and pre-conceived ideas; and so I can’t help bringing that to Redux. That’s also the reason why I spoke about Skutatoi – I felt there was a similarity with Redux Moorish spear).

Axalon, I agree with you if you think more lethal missile units are required. Apart from the longbow what missile upgrades did you make?

Two units of Spanish Feudal archers don’t have much effect on Moorish spear blocks, especially when most of the Moorish army are these dudes. I’ve noticed Moorish armies have few or no missile units and are almost solely 100 man sword and spears throughout – another reason why they are hard to beat imho.
I could use more feudal archers, but I’m certain I’d get overrun. Taking your point again, I could try to upgrade my archers and see how that works out or hire mercenaries. I haven’t tried crossbows, because my feeling is they would be too slow. But I think I’ll try anyway just for fun!

“At any rate, if you can’t handle the Moorish onslaught play some other faction instead!”
I never said that; just looking for some advice on how to defeat these 100 man dudes.
Actually, I don’t mind losing. I still enjoy myself after losing a long epic battle. If I could win every battle, (especially on expert) the game would be no fun or challenge at all. I certainly feel like I’ve been in a battle after fighting the Moors on Redux expert.
And having fun and overcoming tactical challenges is what it’s all about – right?

”In an overall sense I think that if you find Spain too hard to play you should play another faction instead”
I did play English on hard. I didn’t have a single battle with the French. We allied and they even returned a rebellious province to my control! The Moors wiped out the French for me. Then I pushed the Moors back out of France and into Spain with the longbow.

Finally Axalon, while I’m here.
Could you please explain this build embargo thing to me – how and why to use it?
I’ve noticed that master spearmaker does not give its +2 valor bonus to Royal Spear.
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[Rick]

Attrition?

I'm working my way through another game, this time I'm playing the English. In this and the last game I played the units loose some of their strength. Is this an elememt of attrition that you added, or was in the original MTW all along and I Just didn't notice it?

Rick

[daigaku]

Hi,

...another lesson learned: never leave too many regions to the rebels. Not for the nuisance they are, but for respawns....
Had extinguished the Moors, and just about to build up Iberia. All Northern Africa, from Morocco to Tripoli/Syria, was Rebel Land, with quite a few men scattered around(altogether about 7000). The Moment I had secured Iberia for good - a respawn of the Moors turned up, thousands and thousands of them, the rebels joining them as well, getting all this land, and partially with still intact and well developed infrastructure. I´ll have hell to keep them out of Europe.........

headshaking greetings,

daigaku