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  1. #1

    Default Re: Redux: Battle & Tactics

    Appreciate the post Plato

    Sounds like the AI screwed up royally – and paid the price for it… You maximized the capacities you had available while the AI squandered his. It’s really a shame that the battle-AI is hardcoded. Had the Moors done a full frontal attack with everything (in a broad line) you could have very well lost that battle as it seemingly had better troops for close combat the you did. You correctly exploited the fact that the AI had no ranged troops. Had it there just been 1 archer-unit in the Moorish army - things could have been very different (you would at least have had casualties then).

    ...So folks, there you have it. Do not ignore ranged troops in your armies! Always make room for some ranged units in every army - if you want it to be able to counter such and other problems. I find it highly unlikely that you will be sorry for it.

    - Cheers

  2. #2

    Default Re: Redux: Battle & Tactics

    Anyhow, as it already has come up - I think some tips and thoughts on crossbow-units could be interesting here as well, so I’ll do some of that now….


    Crossbow-units: tips & thoughts
    ==========================

    • Crossbowmen have much slower fire rate then archers (roughly 50%) but they are much more deadly if allowed to fire. Not much will survive it, including Byzantine cataphracts…

    • Crossbowmen have shorter range then most archer formations, thus a “ranged duel” with archers is not an optimal scenario for crossbowmen. Besides, archers usually have fire rate of 200% or more by comparison…. That will be a factor too.

    • Crossbowmen are more defence-oriented troops then archers as their fire rate are slower and their range shorter – making it harder to successfully create viable circumstances to use them in offensive operations.

    • Crossbowmen are cheap (and easy to get), while archers are (usually) not…

    • Quarrels are much better at killing heavily armoured units then arrows….

    • Do not use crossbow-formations for suppressive fire in a battlezone – because that will probably create plenty of casualties due to “friendly fire”….

    • Do not move troops directly in front of crossbow-formations while they are firing – that is practically begging for casualties in Redux…

    • Once crossbowmen are placed in a good position switch off the skirmish-mode so they won’t run around like idiots as soon any enemy is close. It is much better that they move when given the order to do so then “improvising” it on their own…. This is especially true for Pavise units….

    • If deploying crossbowmen in battle, always be very careful with the “fire at will”-mode. It is safer to instantly switch that off just to save yourself future possible casualties due to “improvised” fire-directions – which is otherwise bound to happen. After all, quarrels are far too deadly to disregard like that…

    • As with archers, crossbowmen need protection and support to survive. If cavalry (or regular infantry) catches them they will probably die… Heavy and mercenary crossbow-units are tougher then the rest, but they too will die if catched by serious enemy troops….

    • Heavy-, mercenary- and Italian crossbowmen have slightly faster fire rate (and better accuracy) then other crossbow-formations due to more extensive training (and reflecting better equipment).

    • Pavise-units have little use beyond defensive-operations as they are usually too slow for anything else. Once in position however (preferably with support), they will withstand enemy fire better then any other ranged unit in the game. Remember, pavise-units are worthless in combat and poor escapers - if not protected they will die…


    Alright, that is some tips on crossbow-units in Redux for you guys. Discuss this or general topic at your discretion….

    - Cheers

  3. #3

    Default Re: Redux: Battle & Tactics

    Alright, some stuff on armour piercing units of Redux here...


    Armour piercing units
    ==========================
    All such troops are useful against heavily armoured enemies somehow - basically 5+ in raw armour-value (the standard value for armour without any upgrades). All armour only have half value against all such units - which means that a attack/melee stat of 4 can break thru any armour of 7 or below and deal damage. Most knights have a raw armour-value of 6. Regular infantry has a raw armour-value of 3. Byzantine Cataphracts has a raw armour-value 9 etc. etc. This means that upgrades on armour piercing units are especially powerful. Some (heavy) halbardiers for instance will with just a level 1 upgrade on weapons be able to become seriously dangerous against virtually any infantry in the Redux and not just cavalry. Same thing applies also to (Light Halbardiers and) Heavy Pikemen with a level 2 upgrade etc. etc. Below is a list of all AP-units in Redux (RXB1003)...


    AP-Units/attack stat/faction*
    ----------------------------------

    • Heathen Berserkers 8 (Lithuania)
    • Merc. Eliteguard 6
    • Claymore Infantry 5
    • Woodsmen 2
    • Peasant Militia 0
    • Regular Militia 2
    • Heavy Militia 2
    • Light Halbardiers 2
    • Halbardiers 3
    • Heavy Pikemen 2 (HRE, Italy, Lombardy and Papacy)
    • Greatsword Guard 6 (HRE)
    • Spanish Champion 10 (Spain & Aragon)
    • Royal Guard 3 (England, France, Burgundy and Portugal)
    • Palace Guard 3 (Russia & Hungary)
    • Byzantine Palaceguard 3 (Byzantines)
    • Feudal Champions 10
    • Champion 12
    • Norse Infantry 5 (Norse)
    • Norse Boduguards 8 (Norse)
    • Norse Berserkers 15 (Norse)
    • Norse Champion 15 (Norse)
    • Norse Mercenaries 5 (Norse, Byzantines)
    • Norse Horsemen 5 (Norse)
    • Black Guard 5 (Moors)
    • Nubian Slayer 12 (Moors & Saracens)


    * Faction that has access to special or limited units.


    Weapon Upgrades: (Redux)
    ----------------------------------
    Level I   +1 Attack
    Level II  +2 Attack
    Level III +3 Attack


    Overall, weapon upgrades are always good on any unit but the actual effect on AP-units is basically unmatched in comparison to any other troops in Redux. That might be worthwile to keep in mind as you play the game. Other then that, a little reminder that this thread is still open for business - and - it is still my personal fave-thread around here (more or less)...

    - A
    Last edited by Axalon; 05-20-2012 at 04:16. Reason: update...

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  4. #4
    Member Member daigaku's Avatar
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    Default Re: Redux: Battle & Tactics

    Hi Axalon,

    .....just realized to recruit too few Berserkers ;-)) They will be even better, though less in numbers, than Bodyguards to slaughter whole armys - with armourIII-upgrade, of course.....

    greetings, daigaku

  5. #5
    Member Member daigaku's Avatar
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    Default Re: Redux: Battle & Tactics

    Hi to all REDUX players,

    being a rather defensive player I just want to write down what worked for me, as well in Vanilla as in REDUX. Enjoy!

    For all Factions:

    - The very first is economy. Comes before big army, comes before variety of units. No money, no units - that simple.

    - Don´t go for numbers. Go for quality. Every building increasing valour/morale/weapon-stats/armour-stats is vital. Costs a fortune to get them all - but is worth every Florin.

    - Retrain, even the cheapest units. Every upgrade makes even woodsmen usable in battle!

    - Blitzing works in Vanilla. It doesn´t really work in REDUX. Build your empire slow but steady. Sometimes it´s enough to conquer one or two provinces in a king´s life to keep up influence.

    - Naval superiority. I had situations with an oncoming armada of about 150 Byz ships - be prepared to wipe out every ship of every possible opponent - and keep your trade going. Use islands giving no income for ship production!!


    - Use outstanding units for outstanding jobs. In the discussion with Axalon I gave some examples ;-))

    - Don´t use units just to fill up the stack. Always the best is only good enough, especially against highly trained heavy Infantry or Knights.

    For my beloved Norse:

    - Use all strong units, but have always at least 3 units of Norse Bodyguards/Berserkers and Norse Pathfinders in your army. With heavy odds, they will "make your day" ;-))

    - You will love forests. An axe in the forest against spears and Cav does wonders - the thicker the forest the better.

    - After the Pathfinders shot their arrows, they are great melee fighters for any flanking action with morale which never lets them run. Give them Armour and Weapon upgrades!

    - Norse Spearmen have better defence (and morale) than most other. If needed use them in melee - they will stand their ground!

    That, for the moment, sums it up. I wish everybody good battles ;-))

    greetings, daigaku
    Last edited by Axalon; 01-16-2014 at 20:29. Reason: Topical coloring... - Axalon

  6. #6
    Member Member daigaku's Avatar
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    Default Re: Redux: Battle & Tactics

    Hi @Axalon,

    ...just had this increadible experience to extinguish the Norse - with longbowmen...

    I would not have dared to enter this province of theirs due to a 8star bodyguard general, all his men in level3 armour - but it was the most developed region, and so their new young king, a mere 2star, turned up there. I entered with mainly bows (a risk, for they had some cavalry, but how wisely does a 2star lead his men?) They let themselves be lured out of the forest they took as cover by a unit of my swift Irish Horsemen I put before their noses - right into the concentrated fire of 7 not-even-covered Longbow-units. Were shot to pieces because they decided not to send their cavalry to disturb my bowmen and so were simply too slow to cover the distance to my bows...none of them rooted, but their last man, the King, got shot down just before reaching my bows.
    This, for me, is a lesson learned for using my beloved Norse. NEVER EVER get out of any stripe of wood you find against any decent projectiles!!! As you know from former descriptions, I always used this tactics, but here I saw how horrible such a "simple" mistake can be...

    Happily fighting along greetings,
    daigaku

  7. #7

    Default Re: Redux: Battle & Tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by daigaku View Post
    - The very first is economy. Comes before big army, comes before variety of units. No money, no units - that simple.

    - Blitzing works in Vanilla. It doesn´t really work in REDUX. Build your empire slow but steady. Sometimes it´s enough to conquer one or two provinces in a king´s life to keep up influence.

    - Use islands giving no income for ship production!!
    That is good advice...

    Quote Originally Posted by daigaku View Post
    This, for me, is a lesson learned for using my beloved Norse. NEVER EVER get out of any stripe of wood you find against any decent projectiles!!! As you know from former descriptions, I always used this tactics, but here I saw how horrible such a "simple" mistake can be...
    Umm… “I told you so”, now you seen it first hand what arrows and quarrels can do to Norse infantry. Obviously, the AI will never have the capacity to exploit certain circumstances as well as the player can, and usually will – as your tale here illustrates. I can’t help but to feel for the young, brave Viking-king how he died at the feet of cowardly English longbowmen - pierced by many arrows. Had it been me, I would have used that cavalry to destroy your archers, or die trying, as that would probably determine the outcome of the whole battle. The AI, of course, doesn’t have the capacity to see the importance of that detail. Anyway, now you have seen it for yourself – it is not a matter of faction but of troops, circumstances and tactics – that regardless of any faction. As it should be…

    Quote Originally Posted by daigaku View Post
    ...just had this increadible experience to extinguish the Norse - with longbowmen...
    Longbowmen is an extreme unit, so powerful that nothing can seriously match it in ranged combat, especially so under player management. And it has been debated many times if they should be allowed to be as powerful as they are in Redux. I have always defended them and their extreme traits - but as I always say – use them with care and caution as they are potentially game-wrecking, that’s how powerful they are (with their extreme range). It is hardly by accident that England is the only regular faction to be listed as “fairly easy”, due to their longbows. Or that it takes 3 years to develop 1 unit and cost plenty in the process. Use them responsibly, too many of these can ruin your game. Just saying… To me, they are much more interesting in the hands of the AI then any player.

    - A

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