Redux: Battle & Tactics

[Obliqueattack]

To William:
Sorry so brief, but the same as Axalon said really. -Excellent suggestions that I haven’t tried before.

To Axalon:
“What you are describing is a classic example of allocating wrong tactical resources for the wrong places…….. So you’ll have to either upgrade them or do something else”

Point taken: I’ve often gone into battle without paying attention to enemy valor; a sometimes fatal mistake as I’ve finally realized!! Weapon, morale and armor bonuses need careful consideration too.

“Well you can’t expect to outnumber the Moors as Spain that would simply being hoping for too much.”
I don’t mean overall troop numbers per faction- I mean in a single battle.
Until 100 man Royal Spear and Royal foot can be produced, the only good troops the Spanish have are in blocks of 40 or 60 which find it difficult to compete with Moorish blocks of 100. The Moors have lots of these early one, and tend to crush these smaller 40/60 man units.

“Expect the opposite and adjust your strategy and tactics accordingly. Hence you need to make other plans and use other types of troops. It’s that simple really.”

So yes, you are right --change tactics: concentrate on getting Royal spear Royal Infantry into production as soon as possible. Perhaps don’t attack the Moors too early on. Sometimes the Moors send emissaries wanting to break off hostilities – so they can be reasoned with!!
I’ve found the Portugese and Aragonese to be softer targets until better troops can be built.

”mobility is key and you should strive to never allow the enemy to use its full force against you”
Again good advice when attacking, but I’m not sure how I could do this when defending except to run away all over the battlefield.

“I find missiles in combination don't help much either.”
Perhaps it’s just me, but I’ve never been too impressed with missiles in MTW* in general. I can remember winning too many battles where enemies had armies with a lot or even a few missile units. I’ve always found that slugging it out decides most battles along with terrain, morale, valor and death of a general. (*vanilla and other mods; you see its sometimes necessary to talk about other versions; they shape our experience and perceptions and pre-conceived ideas; and so I can’t help bringing that to Redux. That’s also the reason why I spoke about Skutatoi – I felt there was a similarity with Redux Moorish spear).

Axalon, I agree with you if you think more lethal missile units are required. Apart from the longbow what missile upgrades did you make?

Two units of Spanish Feudal archers don’t have much effect on Moorish spear blocks, especially when most of the Moorish army are these dudes. I’ve noticed Moorish armies have few or no missile units and are almost solely 100 man sword and spears throughout – another reason why they are hard to beat imho.
I could use more feudal archers, but I’m certain I’d get overrun. Taking your point again, I could try to upgrade my archers and see how that works out or hire mercenaries. I haven’t tried crossbows, because my feeling is they would be too slow. But I think I’ll try anyway just for fun!

“At any rate, if you can’t handle the Moorish onslaught play some other faction instead!”
I never said that; just looking for some advice on how to defeat these 100 man dudes.
Actually, I don’t mind losing. I still enjoy myself after losing a long epic battle. If I could win every battle, (especially on expert) the game would be no fun or challenge at all. I certainly feel like I’ve been in a battle after fighting the Moors on Redux expert.
And having fun and overcoming tactical challenges is what it’s all about – right?

”In an overall sense I think that if you find Spain too hard to play you should play another faction instead”
I did play English on hard. I didn’t have a single battle with the French. We allied and they even returned a rebellious province to my control! The Moors wiped out the French for me. Then I pushed the Moors back out of France and into Spain with the longbow.

Finally Axalon, while I’m here.
Could you please explain this build embargo thing to me – how and why to use it?
I’ve noticed that master spearmaker does not give its +2 valor bonus to Royal Spear.
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[Rick]

Attrition?

I'm working my way through another game, this time I'm playing the English. In this and the last game I played the units loose some of their strength. Is this an elememt of attrition that you added, or was in the original MTW all along and I Just didn't notice it?

Rick

[William the Silent]

Attrition?

I'm working my way through another game, this time I'm playing the English. In this and the last game I played the units loose some of their strength. Is this an elememt of attrition that you added, or was in the original MTW all along and I Just didn't notice it?

Rick

You will loose unit strenght in several cases. As far as I know when besieging, if crusade moves through your provence, or when certain disaster happens in your province.

Also units may automaticly merge, but that's a "personal setting" issue and you don't loose strenght.

[Axalon]

Hi guys,

William: Thanks for answering Rick. No attrition...

Obliqueattack: Ok, so our little tactical discussion/debate focused on Spain continues much to my delight.

”I’ve often gone into battle without paying attention to enemy valor; a sometimes fatal mistake as I’ve finally realized!! Weapon, morale and armor bonuses need careful consideration too.”

Playing Spain set on “Expert” you really don’t have the margins to ignore that. That is generally true for all factions in redux, but it is obvious in that particular case. Redux is far more unforgiving in that sense compared with the original.

”I mean in a single battle.”

Yes… My answer was directed towards that end. You can’t expect to outnumber the Moors as Spain. Heavy odds are the usual standard here. Attack or defense it does not matter really.

”Spanish have are in blocks of 40 or 60 which find it difficult to compete with Moorish blocks of 100. The Moors have lots of these early one, and tend to crush these smaller 40/60 man units.”

A fairly adequate description I think and definitely part of the problem for Spain. You simply will have to get used to that or be destroyed. The Moors and Spain got different tech-trees hence different troops and style in their armies. The Moors may appear to be stronger initially but if Spain can survive long enough it will have everything it needs to counter the Moors successfully.

”…but I’m not sure how I could do this when defending except to run away all over the battlefield.”

Static defense is not the way to go if you’re outnumbered and short of a castle. Use the terrain, choose you’re killing-ground carefully and be sure to use your cavalry to take out other isolated cavalry and archer-units. If you will encounter some Moorish archers you simply can’t ignore them or you will probably loose. Spanish lancers are excellent units for that end, especially against archers. Also, make sure not to concentrate all the fighting to a single place, thus allowing the enemy to use the full force of its army all at once. See my example above (post:1)…

”Perhaps it’s just me, but I’ve never been too impressed with missiles in MTW* in general."

No that goes for me too, so I devised an entirely new system for that in redux. No bow or crossbow are the same as in the original (or any other version for that matter). This is one of the more blatant traits of reduxed battle. Everything is more lethal and by comparison with the original, more extreme (personally I prefer “explicit” thou).

“…vanilla and other mods; you see its sometimes necessary to talk about other versions; they shape our experience and perceptions and pre-conceived ideas; and so I can’t help bringing that to Redux.”

It is a reasonable argument, no doubt. I however think that many people are assuming too much because of such ideas. It is understandable, but hardly advisable when facing a very different battle-system such as the one found in redux. Everything is far more diverse, less standardized and more unforgiving. Because of that fact old MTW tactics don’t work well in redux, there is too many parameters there that simply can’t be ignored in the same way it can be in the original. The original is by comparison quite forgiving where as redux is not.

I would imagine that it is quite possible that some people loose their battles and may believe that there might be some bad balance in the game because of it. When in fact it is a question of poor tactics or rather usage of wrong tactics. I have no idea how many that have been scared off from redux that way but my guess is that it is far more than one. People seem to often assume that everything is designed in accordance with the CA template. Again an understandable notion since most versions seems to comply very well with that template (MTW-XL for instance), redux however does not, the reduxed projectile system for instance is a blatant example of that fact. Thus reduxed battle is very different and far more lethal (that’s why I set up this thread because most other versions combat-systems are based on the CA template and that is hardly similar to or valid for reduxed battle).

Many people seem to be used to blitzing all over Europe in style in the original game, but that will hardly happen in redux because they will be destroyed and loose their battles because they have not prepared their armies for the tasks that await them. There are too many variables and to much diversity in reduxed battles and that forces you to adapt accordingly, it’s either that or you probably get destroyed. Reduxed battle demands a lot more attention from the player and people might not be prepared for that fact and get healthy wake up calls, as in loosing their battles or even worse get wiped out from the map. Several such cases have actually been reported in, so it’s very possible indeed with redux. As for peoples reactions to all that, I don’t have a clue.

”Two units of Spanish Feudal archers don’t have much effect on Moorish spear blocks, especially when most of the Moorish army are these dudes. I’ve noticed Moorish armies have few or no missile units and are almost solely 100 man sword and spears throughout – another reason why they are hard to beat imho.”

If you doubled that up to 4 units I believe that you would get a drastic difference, especially if you use concentrated fire tactics (all directed towards one single target). Reduxed armies are a lot harder than the peasants that the Moors usually have in the original, no doubts there. As for cavalry and archers they usually have some of those as well making things even harder and diverse opposition to deal with. There is no doubt that Moorish warrior and infantry formations are very frequent in Moorish armies, but if look upon it from “their” perspective it is very understandable. Moorish infantry is one of the best units they got to deal with knights so that’s probably one of the reasons why the AI uses them. As for enemy infantry, same thing applies again for the Moors. Also it is a matter of development and available buildings. They also got the Black guard and those units are good but limited in numbers (thus they are not that popular with the AI).


Ok, I leave the floor open to all others… Obliqueattack?

- Cheers
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In the interest of topicality, building-issues are not part of this dedicated thread and should be discussed elsewhere. This place is all about tactics, battles and battle reports and stuff like that. You will find your answers over at the regular thread instead, Obliqueattack.

[Rick]

You will loose unit strenght in several cases. As far as I know when besieging, if crusade moves through your provence, or when certain disaster happens in your province.

Also units may automaticly merge, but that's a "personal setting" issue and you don't loose strenght.

I know about siege losses and after battle reconstitution, but I've found that units just sitting around outside the castle/city seem to loose strength. I'll make further notes and report back.

[Axalon]

I just wanted to say that this thread is yet again open for business! As of this post we focus on new Redux (3rd ED) from this point onwards. While I am here, I might as well drop some various tips and thoughts on archer-units…



Archer-units: tips & thoughts
========================

• Archers have different ranges in Redux. I think it is 4 ranges. The higher tier of archers the longer range they usually have. Royal archers are the most accurate of the bunch while longbowmen have the longest range – no contest.
  
  
• As arrows are far more deadly in Redux then in raw MTW – firing into a battlezone will cost you far more troops due to “friendly fire” then in MTW – so don’t do that if not especially desperate.
  
  
• Moving troops just in front of, or thru, an archer-unit while it is firing will get you casualties due to “friendly fire” – so don’t do that if you can help it. It is practically begging for casualties in Redux…
  
  
• If out-ranged… Seek cover in wooded terrain, move out of range or rush you archers into range with a thin loose line to pick up the “ranged fight” with the enemy. Regardless, whatever you decide to do – do it fast! Otherwise, be prepared to do some counting casualties…
  
  
• To be extra lethal with arrows – use “concentrated fire” tactics – as in have several units’ fire at the same target at the same time. This is very effective against almost anything…
  
  
• If facing champions, berserkers, cataphracts and the like – use arrows and fast! Before they come into contact with your forces! Otherwise your poor infantry will suffer heavy casualties and you will do the counting… Whenever you see such units appear in battle try to take them out with arrows (that is still the best and safest way)…
  
  
• Archers are usually worthless against cavalry – try to protect them whenever possible with spear/pike-formations just to “shield them” from cavalry – if you don’t they will probably die if cavalry catches them.
  
  
• Pay attention to the size of enemy-archer-formations in the field. If greater in numbers then yours - you will probably lose in a “ranged duel” 1 on 1 (so try to take ‘em out by other means, never leave them be…). Smaller archer-formations (like Norse Pathfinders, Slavic foresters etc.) should not engage in “ranged duels” as they will probably get destroyed or routed by doing it – besides they too good to be wasted like that! Smaller archer-formations should work together and use “concentrated fire” tactics to be more effective or just do some suppressing fire on large formations in a battlezone….
  
  
• If you have 3-4 or more archer formations, and the opportunity, experiment with “coordinated fire” hitting the selected enemy-unit with orderly and sequential waves of fire - keeping it under constant fire-suppression – it can be very effective and devastating.
  
  
• If provided with the luxury, try to select especially vulnerable targets if possible for maximum effect per salvo. Targets with no shield are usually a good choice (or with little or no armour). Pike-formations and other “unshielded” units usually fare very poorly against arrows.
  
  
• Pay attention to fire rates in Redux as it can eventually be very important. Slavic bowmen, Feudal-, Byzantine-, Steppe- and Mercenary archers have all a faster fire rate then others and that will eventually show in prolonged “ranged duels”. This is also the case with Armenian infantry or any regular Muslim archer-unit. Royal archers, Norse Pathfinders and Slavic foresters have a slower fire-rate (while being more accurate and lethal). Longbowmen are also slower but have “extreme” range (and they have AP-arrows).
  
  
• Archer-units in Redux are more expensive to train then crossbow-units but they are usually more flexible in battle – as the conditions for active and successful use are easier to achieve in battle due to a higher fire-rate.

Ok, that’s some tips on archer-units in Redux for you guys. Discuss this or general topic at your discretion….

- Cheers

[Plato]

Archer Range
Long range is really long range! I was fighting a defensive battle against the English. Unfortunately the map was the side of a large hill and I was at the bottom. From the crest, their English Foresters could hit my front line, half the battlefield away! Luckily the AI only tried this late on, once the battle was as good as lost for him.

Out-ranged?
Hazard a cavalry unit - preferably not in a frontal charge but at an angle. They probably won't engage the archers (not before the AI moves in some support), but they should make them pause firing and retreat. This may buy you a few vital seconds.

Enemy Heavy Units
I believe I am correct in saying that crossbows/quarrels are more potent against armour than bows/arrows. I'm sure it's especially true for Heavy Crossbowmen which can stop anything.

Protecting Archers
Lower level Spearmen are only useful against cavalry, so take no more than you need to counter enemy mounted units; you will be better served by normal infantry. Higher level units, Royal or Order, can cope with almost anything.


I managed a memorable victory over the Moors with the pairing of Archers and Crossbowmen. Expecting only token resistance, I moved a small force into Mauritania: 2 x Archers, 2 x Crossbowmen, 2 x cavalry of some sort, 2 x armoured spearmen. To my surprise the enemy swapped his armies between Mauritania and North Africa, and I was facing the royal entourage: the Caliph and his sons with Muslim Bodyguards, some Muslim Heavy Cavalry and a couple of assorted infantry units. In numbers, they were roughly equal to my own. As is typical for the AI, they postured for a while and then retreated to a corner. The trek to close with them left my armoured units very tired, but at last they were within range up a slight slope. I arranged my men in the usual formation: crossbowmen in front of archers in front of spearmen, and the cavalry on either side. With the ranged units set to auto-fire, I tiptoed the whole lot forward until the archers began to loose their arrows. This stirred the Moors into life, but they really just moved units left or right a bit all the while suffering attrition. Eventually they began to send their units against me, but these frontal assaults were cut down mercilessly by the crossbowmen. Finally they started to break and flee. The end result was 284 killed for no loss on my part.

[Axalon]

Appreciate the post Plato…

Sounds like the AI screwed up royally – and paid the price for it… You maximized the capacities you had available while the AI squandered his. It’s really a shame that the battle-AI is hardcoded. Had the Moors done a full frontal attack with everything (in a broad line) you could have very well lost that battle as it seemingly had better troops for close combat the you did. You correctly exploited the fact that the AI had no ranged troops. Had it there just been 1 archer-unit in the Moorish army - things could have been very different (you would at least have had casualties then).

...So folks, there you have it. Do not ignore ranged troops in your armies! Always make room for some ranged units in every army - if you want it to be able to counter such and other problems. I find it highly unlikely that you will be sorry for it.

- Cheers