[OT] Need help with greek names again!

[AqD]

Hi all!

I need help with some greek names again, please help me! There isn't any better source I could find on internet... (you guys are the best )

1.What are the greek names for "Kardaka" (the persian hoplite), "Azat", and "Naxarar" - they seem to be in english form, but where do they come from and how ancient greeks call them originally?

2."Hoplite"?! I cannot understand why many people call it "hoplite". As far as I know they're either called "hoplitai" (p) or "hoplites" (s) in ancient greek. So when did people begin to call them "hoplite" (s) and "hoplites" (p)?? Is it just mis-spelling or it is some kind of weird translation..?

3.Can the words "Aristoi", "Beltistoi", and "Eugeneis" be used to describe different ranks of nobles?

4.Did ancient greeks have other words to descrbe "swordsmen", other than "Machairophoroi" (short-swords bearer?)

[oudysseos]

I think that you will find this useful:
http://members.tripod.com/~S_van_Dor..._glossary.html

[AqD]

Thanks but it cannot answer my questions

[Tellos Athenaios]

Hi all!

I need help with some greek names again, please help me! There isn't any better source I could find on internet... (you guys are the best )

1.What are the greek names for "Kardaka" (the persian hoplite), "Azat", and "Naxarar" - they seem to be in english form, but where do they come from and how ancient greeks call them originally?

2."Hoplite"?! I cannot understand why many people call it "hoplite". As far as I know they're either called "hoplitai" (p) or "hoplites" (s) in ancient greek. So when did people begin to call them "hoplite" (s) and "hoplites" (p)?? Is it just mis-spelling or it is some kind of weird translation..?

3.Can the words "Aristoi", "Beltistoi", and "Eugeneis" be used to describe different ranks of nobles?

4.Did ancient greeks have other words to descrbe "swordsmen", other than "Machairophoroi" (short-swords bearer?)

(1) See other post, it's covered if you are willing to spend some time reading it.
(2) Well what do you expect from modern English? Guess the name was simply 'Anglicised'.
(3) No, not really. Eugeneis means noble the other two only mean noble because that was how (some of) the nobles thought of themselves. Incidentally, Beltistoi means 'best', Aristoi means 'with the most arete/virtue' -- but you may want to take virtue as in the Latin virtus. EDIT: Though aristoi can be used for 'best' (just) as well.
(4) Yes. Xiphephoros for instance. Check out this link: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...bmit=Do+Search

[AqD]

(1) See other post, it's covered if you are willing to spend some time reading it.

I have searched several times and cannot find any post with their greek names in the forum... (btw did the greeks just call kardaka "kardaka"??)

(2) Well what do you expect from modern English? Guess the name was simply 'Anglicised'.
(3) No, not really. Eugeneis means noble the other two only mean noble because that was how (some of) the nobles thought of themselves. Incidentally, Beltistoi means 'best', Aristoi means 'with the most arete/virtue' -- but you may want to take virtue as in the Latin virtus. EDIT: Though aristoi can be used for 'best' (just) as well.

Hmmm so how did they describe units of different ranks of nobles in a fedual system?? The only other word I found is "Basilikon" to describe royal units.

(4) Yes. Xiphephoros for instance. Check out this link: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...bmit=Do+Search

Thanks the website could help a lot for my further questions

[AqD]

... Anyone know the greek words for "azat" and "nakharar"?? I still can't find them

[keravnos]

It would help if you translated them in English. I don't know armenian, therefore I can't help as I don't know of an online Armenian-Greek dictionary.

[Foot]

azat, means "noble", though a more direct translation is "free-man". "Nakharar" is another word for noble but directly connected to the feudal social system, and was a later addition to the armenian language.

Foot

[keravnos]

"Kardakes hoplitai"=Kardaka in its hellenized form. I think this is how Arrianos calls them.

At Issos, Arrian says that there were 60,000 kardakes hoplites to the flanks of the Greek mercenaries

http://www.ancientbattles.com/Issus/...n%27s_page.htm

Of course Polybios calls them Peltasts, but I prefer Arrian's take on the subject, based on other things he had right when others were wrong.

"Azat" would be called "Armenioi Eugeneis" in Greek, meaning "Armenian noblemen".

"Nakharar" well the only two mentions of noblemen closely related to the King would be "Hetairoi" or "Philoi tou Basileos" meaning "Kings' friends" who were most of the times considered a Military unit.

[AqD]

hmmm.. so ancient greeks didn't have special words to call "azat" and "nakharar"?


Thanks anyway!

[AqD]

Heh, I just realized the byzantines also used greek language so they should have some special words for Nakharar and Azat.... googling....

BTW didn't ancient armenians use greek for writing??

[Foot]

There was no alaphabet for the armenian language till 5th century AD (or was it 3rd). They were generally bi-lingual using Aramaic/Persian or Greek for writing depending on what sphere of cultural influence they were under.

I really don't think you understand, both Nakharar and Azat refer to nobility or, for the latter, free-men. The Greeks aren't going to invent new words to describe the nuances associated with those words. You can search all you want but you won't find anything.

Foot

[Tellos Athenaios]

Exactly. In fact, if anything the Greeks weren't all too concerned about their own terminology when it came to military matters, either. Which is why (military) historians of today often have a hard time understanding historians of back then: the lack of regard for precise terminology.

[AqD]

There was no alaphabet for the armenian language till 5th century AD (or was it 3rd). They were generally bi-lingual using Aramaic/Persian or Greek for writing depending on what sphere of cultural influence they were under.

I really don't think you understand, both Nakharar and Azat refer to nobility or, for the latter, free-men. The Greeks aren't going to invent new words to describe the nuances associated with those words. You can search all you want but you won't find anything.

Foot

Well I found some terms from Iranica. It appears greeks called armenian/parthian azat in army as "eleutheroi" or "liberi", and refered to some persian nobles as "protoi", meaning the first ones - it seems to be connected to Nakharar 'first-born'?

PS: I understand what you mean, but I just need some different names for use in my mod