Empire using Steam; Gamespot interview/preview

[Fisherking]

http://www.sega.co.uk/news/?n=2427

A bit more that may have been missed.

also this: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...19&tag=nl.e579

[pevergreen]

I may have to completely pass up on an ETW that requires steam, if it does (loading articles now to check)

edit: Ok it requires steam, but that online part will be better than Gamespy right? At least it sounds as though you only have to connect once in total to play single player.

More importantly, if the files are there, what will the .org's status on that be? Will the org endorse its users talking about modifying to gain these units?

[PBI]

edit: Ok it requires steam, but that online part will be better than Gamespy right? At least it sounds as though you only have to connect once in total to play single player.

Yes, if it's similar to the system for Half Life 2, you have to connect to Steam once during installation to activate the game but that's it; none of this nonsense about having to "call home" every few days to keep the game working.

[Belgolas]

I will get it because it will be a great game and want to support them. Why do so many people hate steam? I prefer downloadable content except for special/limited editions. Steam only needs to check once and then you don't need an internet connection to play. You only need to activate it through steam for retail version. Plus the online will be vastly improved because steam has amazong servers. I personally think programs like Steam are the way of the future and that program is the best thing that happened to PC gamming. Plus you get unlimited installs unlike DRM and you useually get discounts. You can also install your steam account on as many computers as you want but only one of them online at one time. You also get to give friends trial copies unlike retail. You also sometimes get free weekends for certain games. The only problem I have with steam and I mean the ONLY problem is that it is impossible to sell games already activated.

Steam is not evil!

[Husar]

I'm starting to think that maybe the game isn't that good after all. Exactly this kind of ways I can think of, if I'm not confident in my games ability to sell itself as an great game. I got great examples, Battlefield: Bad Company and upcoming Call of Duty: World at War.

I actually like Bad company a lot, it's a great game and they made most of the preorder etc weapons available for everybody now, just go to the official site where they have posted the unlock codes.

I thought about buying Empire directly on Steam and now they come and release some special edition with exclusive units, how stupid is that? Means I have to wait and see what else they will offer and then probably order a copy for 200$ from some vendor in Venezuela who has every single unlock code included.

Concerning modding, since you enter the unlock codes in Steam, I would not be surprised if Steam then downloads the additional units or changes some files if they really want to make it exclusive. Of course in that case I would have rather low hopes for the moddability of the game as well.

I generally like steam as well as long as it works, I can buy a game anywhere and play it on my notebook without carrying all those DVDs around with me. The downsides are probably nonexistant if you live in the US so I won't repeat them here.

[lars573]

I will get it because it will be a great game and want to support them. Why do so many people hate steam? I prefer downloadable content except for special/limited editions. Steam only needs to check once and then you don't need an internet connection to play. You only need to activate it through steam for retail version. Plus the online will be vastly improved because steam has amazong servers. I personally think programs like Steam are the way of the future and that program is the best thing that happened to PC gamming. Plus you get unlimited installs unlike DRM and you useually get discounts. You can also install your steam account on as many computers as you want but only one of them online at one time. You also get to give friends trial copies unlike retail. You also sometimes get free weekends for certain games. The only problem I have with steam and I mean the ONLY problem is that it is impossible to sell games already activated.

Steam is not evil!

Unless the PC you can play it on doesn't have the internet. Then your screwed.

[JR-]

I will get it because it will be a great game and want to support them. Why do so many people hate steam? I prefer downloadable content except for special/limited editions. Steam only needs to check once and then you don't need an internet connection to play. You only need to activate it through steam for retail version. Plus the online will be vastly improved because steam has amazong servers. I personally think programs like Steam are the way of the future and that program is the best thing that happened to PC gamming. Plus you get unlimited installs unlike DRM and you useually get discounts. You can also install your steam account on as many computers as you want but only one of them online at one time. You also get to give friends trial copies unlike retail. You also sometimes get free weekends for certain games. The only problem I have with steam and I mean the ONLY problem is that it is impossible to sell games already activated.

Steam is not evil!

because i don't like my games being treated as a service i rent.

i bought a game, and i want recourse to install and play that game without impediments, such as not having an internet connection.

[gardibolt]

I'd much rather have Steam register it online once during installation than have Securom installing malware that can't be removed.

I'm probably going for the special edition; playing ghurkas could be a riot.

[Praxil]

Oh and welcome to capitalism....where exploitation of the masses is on the daily agenda...

I'm studying "capitalism" actually, well as far as my profession goes.


Yeah, didn't realized this right away, but the game will be a STEAM game only. It will be interesting how the modification will work in the end in this case. You enter the code or something like that and Steam will upload these units for you. What stops anyone from extracting those new files and sharing them? Unless they are encrypted somehow which leads to a question. How mod able the game really is?

The discuss is also about that you only need the internet access for the activation only. Sure, unless you want to patch your game.

[Joker Obama Girl]

hmmm...Steam me no likey...

[Martok]

Note: I split off this thread from the original discussion of the Special Forces Edition. I felt it was best to keep the two topics separate.

[Monk]

As far as copy-protection or game services go, Steam is actually pretty good. In fact i'd go so far to say it's the ideal system, or at least the best currently on the market. It's not the same Steam that debuted with Half-life 2. It's grown, evolved, and generally become far better than anything we've seen since. The same people who blasted Steam when it was introduced are now people who will sing it's praises. Considering the alternative of draconian DRM that the industry seems to favor these days, i'd say Steam is a pretty good thing.

Unless the PC you can play it on doesn't have the internet. Then your screwed.

At the risk of sounding heartless, who doesn't have internet in this day and age? This isn't 02 when steam first came out, the gaming industry these days pretty much assumes that if you have a computer you're going to have internet access. Just like how many games now only come on DVDs and not cds, it's just the industry moving toward technology.

because i don't like my games being treated as a service i rent.

i bought a game, and i want recourse to install and play that game without impediments, such as not having an internet connection.

I understand the point but in an market climate where the threat of piracy is rampant and increasingly intrusive DRM methods are being taken, I'd say if I had to choose between Steam or SecuROM then I am going with Steam 10 times out of 10 and twice on sunday.

[Zenicetus]

As far as copy-protection or game services go, Steam is actually pretty good. In fact i'd go so far to say it's the ideal system, or at least the best currently on the market. It's not the same Steam that debuted with Half-life 2. It's grown, evolved, and generally become far better than anything we've seen since. The same people who blasted Steam when it was introduced are now people who will sing it's praises. Considering the alternative of draconian DRM that the industry seems to favor these days, i'd say Steam is a pretty good thing.

The problem with anything involving online authorization is the unknowable lifespan of the authorizing company and its servers. What happens when you want to re-visit one of these current DRM'd or online-only download games five years from now, when you'll probably be using a different computer and you'll need a fresh install? Heck, we might even be using a different version of the Internet by then. Are you 100% sure that Steam will still be around then? Have you never re-installed an older game during a dry spell, or just for fun? I do it all the time. PC operating systems have been stable enough that I can load most (if not all) of the games I've bought in the last 5 or 6 years with no problems.

There might be unlocked copies still floating around if Steam goes belly-up... a good company would make sure of that. But that's also a gamble. I think that's a big concern for many of us. Not for everyone, of course. I know friends who go through games a lot faster than I do, and basically never look back at older titles. They treat games as short-term disposables. And to be honest, some genres like shooters are basically disposable after one or two play-throughs. Strategy games, tactical combat sims, and good RPG's can have more potential for long life and re-installation, down the road.

If "renting" instead of true ownership (in the sense of the buyer's freedom to install at any future point in time, hardware-permitting) is indeed be the future of PC gaming, then let's have the game companies just come out and say it. Develop a pricing model that's appropriate for a rental product, instead of this antique notion that a $60 game is a purchase with a guaranteed long lifespan at the user's discretion.

[PBI]

Have you never re-installed an older game during a dry spell, or just for fun? I do it all the time. PC operating systems have been stable enough that I can load most (if not all) of the games I've bought in the last 5 or 6 years with no problems.

To be fair though, anything older than that and I generally find I have to spend a good deal of time and effort to get the thing working on a modern computer (and even then it sometimes turns out not to be possible - TIE Fighter, Medieval Total War 1 & the XCOM games, I'm thinking of you ). I guess one could argue that in ten year's time unlocking the by-then highly outdated copy protection of a long-defunct company would probably be a fairly minor hoop to jump through compared to just getting the game to talk to the computer in the first place.

It would certainly be nice if Empire could be released without copy protection, but if we are being realistic that was never going to be a possibility. The final say rests with Sega and no matter how wrong-headed it is we always knew there was no way they would allow the game to be released with no protection. In that light I cannot think of another existing system they could have used which would be preferable to Steam.

I fear it is a sad fact of life these days that a minimal internet connection is a requirement for playing PC games. I remember going through a similar thing 15 years ago or so when games made the transition from floppies to CDs - suddenly, overnight my old 386 was rendered obsolete. It's certainly very annoying, but it's hardly a shocking new development that if you want to play new games you have to be willing to dance to the game companies' tune regarding system requirements.

[Megas Methuselah]

At the risk of sounding heartless, who doesn't have internet in this day and age? This isn't 02 when steam first came out, the gaming industry these days pretty much assumes that if you have a computer you're going to have internet access. Just like how many games now only come on DVDs and not cds, it's just the industry moving toward technology.

Nah, you don't sound heartless. This is the truth. Who doesn't have a computer without internet success? Geez, even my grandmother(Bless her.) has a computer with internet access at home...

To be fair though, anything older than that and I generally find I have to spend a good deal of time and effort to get the damn thing working on a modern computer (and even then it sometimes turns out not to be possible - TIE Fighter, Medieval Total War 1 & the XCOM games, I'm thinking of you :mecry: ). I guess one could argue that in ten year's time unlocking the by-then highly outdated copy protection of a long-defunct company would probably be a fairly minor hoop to jump through compared to just getting the game to talk to the computer in the first place.

Heh heh, I'm thinking of Ceasar II (Yeah, 2. Not 3.) here, which is a spectacular game. I had to download some program which initiated a miniture ms-dos thingy or whatever, to get the game to work. Even then, the background music doesn't work. Ah well, I just play the music in my head.

[nameless]

If "renting" instead of true ownership (in the sense of the buyer's freedom to install at any future point in time, hardware-permitting) is indeed be the future of PC gaming, then let's have the game companies just come out and say it. Develop a pricing model that's appropriate for a rental product, instead of this antique notion that a $60 game is a purchase with a guaranteed long lifespan at the user's discretion.

Renting?

I wasn't aware that STEAM users had to pay a monthly fee to use the program. I thought you just register the game and that was it. You don't need Steam online to play the game.

There might be unlocked copies still floating around if Steam goes belly-up... a good company would make sure of that. But that's also a gamble

No offense but I think your bordering on paranoia. Your thinking of the worst case scenario when these companies will go belly-up. You might as well be fearing for the day CA goes bankrupted or Armageddon occuring that would delay the game or your computer blowing up or crashing due to a super-virus.

Using the word, "If" doesn't get you anywhere.

[Monk]

The problem with anything involving online authorization is the unknowable lifespan of the authorizing company and its servers. What happens when you want to re-visit one of these current DRM'd or online-only download games five years from now, when you'll probably be using a different computer and you'll need a fresh install? Heck, we might even be using a different version of the Internet by then. Are you 100% sure that Steam will still be around then? Have you never re-installed an older game during a dry spell, or just for fun? I do it all the time. PC operating systems have been stable enough that I can load most (if not all) of the games I've bought in the last 5 or 6 years with no problems.

There might be unlocked copies still floating around if Steam goes belly-up... a good company would make sure of that. But that's also a gamble. I think that's a big concern for many of us. Not for everyone, of course. I know friends who go through games a lot faster than I do, and basically never look back at older titles. They treat games as short-term disposables. And to be honest, some genres like shooters are basically disposable after one or two play-throughs. Strategy games, tactical combat sims, and good RPG's can have more potential for long life and re-installation, down the road.

If "renting" instead of true ownership (in the sense of the buyer's freedom to install at any future point in time, hardware-permitting) is indeed be the future of PC gaming, then let's have the game companies just come out and say it. Develop a pricing model that's appropriate for a rental product, instead of this antique notion that a $60 game is a purchase with a guaranteed long lifespan at the user's discretion.

Oh i understand completely what you are saying.

It's the same argument that was brought up in the shadow of the Spore fiasco. When does purchasing a game with intrusive protection grant true ownership and when does it only offer a "rental" status, to steal your term. I do much the same, to use a TW game to illustrate your point STW has been on and off my hard drive numerous times over the last ten years. I've even bought the game on three separate occasions, either from losing the CD-key or just breaking the disk. I love that game and its ambiance has not be recreated in the series sense.

However, times have changed. The gaming industry loses millions of dollars each year from piracy and illegal downloads. It is the single greatest threat to developers and companies, and something that has grown by leaps and bounds in the last five years alone. CD-keys have been replaced by Steam-IDs and in much more extreme cases, by pieces of technology that actually verify if you're using the disk or not, or those that actually limit what you're able to do with the game you paid for. The fear that you will be left unable to play ETW after steam is long gone, however, is one I would not hold. To believe that no one, nowhere, would not attempt to crack the steam encoding is a pretty bold statement. There's always work-arounds.

You have to be pragmatic in the market. IMHO Steam is truly the best option of all the copy-protection systems and offers the least intrusive from my own experiences. There may come a day when a better and more reliable option than Steam presents itself, and when that happens I will gladly sing its praises as well. But with the memories of the recent copy-protection experiments made by EA,(which is to say nothing of SecuROM on Kingdoms!) I take the news of ETW being a "steam powered" game with a grain of salt. So I am smiling, because it could be a lot worse.

[lars573]

At the risk of sounding heartless, who doesn't have internet in this day and age? This isn't 02 when steam first came out, the gaming industry these days pretty much assumes that if you have a computer you're going to have internet access. Just like how many games now only come on DVDs and not cds, it's just the industry moving toward technology.

I don't have internet on the PC that I play games on. Far far too much trouble and expense.

[ljperreira]

I was going to buy this game for my brother when it came out. He has just deployed to Iraq, and he's not sure if he'll have I-net access over there (it may be $90-$100 a month if it is available). This "steam" idea just put a dent in that plan. He was looking forward to this one but he may have to wait until he comes back.

[nameless]

I don't have internet on the PC that I play games on. Far far too much trouble and expense.

Is setting up a wireless network that much trouble?

I mean running an ethernet cable from a router was much more trouble than just installing a wireless adapter into a computer.

I have 3 computers in the house and all of them are linked to one router (Brought it way back in 2005ish and it's still kicking) and my other relatives who come by to stay have laptops that also access the system themselves.

That is of course I'm assuming you do have internet on another PC.

[Husar]

So, if the authentication servers possibly going offline is such a big issue, I guess you're using Linux then?

[lars573]

Is setting up a wireless network that much trouble?

I mean running an ethernet cable from a router was much more trouble than just installing a wireless adapter into a computer.

I have 3 computers in the house and all of them are linked to one router (Brought it way back in 2005ish and it's still kicking) and my other relatives who come by to stay have laptops that also access the system themselves.

That is of course I'm assuming you do have internet on another PC.

Yes it is that much trouble for wireless. It didn't work having to go through the microwave, fridge, and stove. And going between two seperate buildings.

[Belgolas]

K well about life span. I have tried many times to get shogun TW on my PC and have even bought it a few times because I love that game but on a modern computer it just has to many graphical glitches. So your arguement is mute.

[Sorry, but talking about no-cd cracks still isn't allowed, even in this context. -- Martok]

Also I have formatted my hard drive many many times, built many different computers and have run on many different computers and still have not had even ONE problem with steam. I have even run my account on a mac too (running windows). So in other words I have personally installed steam using my account on half a dozen different computers and about a few dozen reinstalls. Not one problem. Plus there are some of my old favourites on steam like the commander keen series.

I wouldn't mind if steam was the ONLY way to play all games. It just works and is bassically the laziest system to use. No poping in cds, going to google to find patches, one store to buy games, discounted prices regularly, built in chat program to talk to finds, etc.

Again why do people hate steam? I can see soldiers not liking it but at least the soldiers in Iraq should be coming home soon!


On a side not about internet we have a large house and have a wireless N router in the middle and have over 13 different pc/consoles,printers,ect connected to it all at once and have no problems.

[Zenicetus]

To believe that no one, nowhere, would not attempt to crack the steam encoding is a pretty bold statement. There's always work-arounds.

Sure, but it's a question of how much hassle you want to deal with, to just launch an older, favorite game. I have a pile of those. Just shove the disk in the machine, and I can install them. Should I have to go online and start searching for a pirated version, to play one of those older games that I already paid for, years ago?

And some of these older games aren't going to be high profile enough for the hackers to bother with. Those of us who like difficult, realistic strategy games, tactical combat sims and flight sims, etc., are at the bottom of the "A list" when it comes to games people bother to crack.

I would actually prefer a decent rental model. Let me pay something like $3 USD a month for a game with replayability like a strategy or RPG that I might play for a year, and a lot more per month for something with a short shelf life like a FPS.... instead of charging me $60 for a game I might not be able to play a few years from now. Don't price games like a long-term commodity if they're not usable past a few installs.

[Akka]

However, times have changed. The gaming industry loses millions of dollars each year from piracy and illegal downloads. It is the single greatest threat to developers and companies, and something that has grown by leaps and bounds in the last five years alone.

I call BS. That's what the industry is whining, but it's blatant lies. Piracy has ALWAYS been rampant, and it has not changed in the last years. If anything, it has considerably lessened compared to the pioneering years, when the people with a computer exchanged truckloads of floppy disks with plenty of games in them, and nobody though much about "pirating".

Nowadays, there is lots of laws, sueing and a general understanding that "pirating isn't a big deal, but it's good to buy" (which is quite an improvement compared to before, trust me). Games now sells in the millionS, while a game was considered a success with 50 000 sales, and a revolution with 100 000 (of course, costs also inscreased, from the two-men teams in the days ^^).

What has changed, is the amount of money thrown into what is now called the "video game industry" (which was known as the "video game world/community" before, quite telling in its own right), making it a much more "serious" situation. In other words, there is now lots of bucks to get, so the big sharks are using everyting in their arsenal to grab their part.
Their first weapon being the DRM (which never work), their second being PR (read : lies), and their third lobbying for laws.

And among their biggest, dearest, most outrageous lies, is the one where they claim their loss due to piracy by simply multiplying the price of the game by the number of pirated copies. Which is, of course, laughable : it's not because someone got a game for free, that he would have bought it if he couldn't have pirated it.

The main threat from piracy, is to push video game publisher to switch entirely to console gaming.

The fear that you will be left unable to play ETW after steam is long gone, however, is one I would not hold. To believe that no one, nowhere, would not attempt to crack the steam encoding is a pretty bold statement. There's always work-arounds.

Of course. All the Steam games have been cracked, be sure of it. Half-Life 2 was even available cracked BEFORE being available legitimaly ^^

[Monk]

I call BS. That's what the industry is whining, but it's blatant lies. Piracy has ALWAYS been rampant, and it has not changed in the last years. If anything, it has considerably lessened compared to the pioneering years, when the people with a computer exchanged truckloads of floppy disks with plenty of games in them, and nobody though much about "pirating".

Nowadays, there is lots of laws, sueing and a general understanding that "pirating isn't a big deal, but it's good to buy" (which is quite an improvement compared to before, trust me). Games now sells in the millionS, while a game was considered a success with 50 000 sales, and a revolution with 100 000 (of course, costs also inscreased, from the two-men teams in the days ^^).

What has changed, is the amount of money thrown into what is now called the "video game industry" (which was known as the "video game world/community" before, quite telling in its own right), making it a much more "serious" situation. In other words, there is now lots of bucks to get, so the big sharks are using everyting in their arsenal to grab their part.
Their first weapon being the DRM (which never work), their second being PR (read : lies), and their third lobbying for laws.

And among their biggest, dearest, most outrageous lies, is the one where they claim their loss due to piracy by simply multiplying the price of the game by the number of pirated copies. Which is, of course, laughable : it's not because someone got a game for free, that he would have bought it if he couldn't have pirated it.

The main threat from piracy, is to push video game publisher to switch entirely to console gaming.

I'm not sure i understand your point, are you suggesting that developers and publishers lose no money, or if they do very little, because of piracy? I find that hard to believe since in some countries you can buy top dollar pirated games from a street vendor for literally pennies on the dollar. The true impact of piracy is not simply people pirating a game they will buy in the future, its people stealing something they never truly in their heart intended to purchase.

Copywrite laws change depending on the country in which you live, so I really can't see that as a valid point. While laws may be pretty strict here in the US, they are pretty lax elsewhere. The world's governments have taken all sorts of different stances on piracy so developers trying to sue and get their money back doesn't always work.. especially if they attempt to sue a site that doesn't reside in the US prosecuting based on US law.

Actually you're right in a sense. Pirating has changed, but it has by no means slown down. Where before people were out in the open about it, wantonly exchanging floppy disks at swap parties, they have now moved it underground. There are literally millions of tracking billions of illegal downloads in today's online world, and movies, music, tv shows and games are all pirated daily. Anything and everything is at risk for piracy now. If you compare the online scene with what it was ten years ago, there's just no comparison. To discount it's growth is to ignore a real problem.

We're sorta getting off topic here, and that's my fault for using such broad language, if Martok/Nelson wants we can stear this back to ETW and Steam.

[BananaBob]

uhhh, steam is amazing. Your account can be uploaded on any computer and it has all of the games on it permanently. One install and you can take your games anywhere, just login in and download. Not worrying about CDs getting scratched because after the first install you don't need them for play.

I got steam for Half-Life 2, and get most of my games from them. It is excellent and non-intrusive, I think the people who hate it should try it and realize how awesome it is.

[Akka]

I find that hard to believe since in some countries you can buy top dollar pirated games from a street vendor for literally pennies on the dollar.

And so ?
In all countries you can download the said game for zero dollar. It's even cheaper than pennies paid to a street vendor. What's your point ?

The true impact of piracy is not simply people pirating a game they will buy in the future, its people stealing something they never truly in their heart intended to purchase.

So the true impact is that people who would not have paid for it, will not pay for it ?
Either I missed something in your reasoning, either you make absolutely no sense.

If you compare the online scene with what it was ten years ago, there's just no comparison. To discount it's growth is to ignore a real problem.

No, it's to take into account that, while piracy has incredibly increased in raw numbers, sales also have incredibly increased in raw numbers.
I don't think the proportion of piracy has really increased. Heck, I'm even pretty sure it has actually proportionnaly DEcreased, simply because there is now a LOT of "casual gamers" who buy all their games, while there was simply no "casual" people in the computer world twenty years ago - we were all somehow nerds/passionnates/technicians and the like. And non-casual people tends to "know the ropes", and as such have a much higher tendency to know how to get their games for free - and as such, much higher proportion to GET them for free.

[Monk]

And so ?
In all countries you can download the said game for zero dollar. It's even cheaper than pennies paid to a street vendor. What's your point ?

It served as an example of how developers are being, in some cases, completely cut out of the picture. It's happening on a bigger scale than you're willing to admit, and that is one example of it.

So the true impact is that people who would not have paid for it, will not pay for it ?
Either I missed something in your reasoning, either you make absolutely no sense.

Bob wants to buy a game, Bob decides from what he reads online the game sounds bad, but he decides to get it anyway. He doesn't buy it so he pirates it. Goods are acquired without the exchange of anything at all, under any other method the definition is stealing. You can go ones tep further anda ssume that Bob will continue to pirate games now that he's done it already.

If he were the only one in the world to take this attitude then there would be no harm, but he's not. I know people here in the states who don't buy a single game. All they do is pirate things. They don't care about supporting a developer, they just want the game.

No, it's to take into account that, while piracy has incredibly increased in raw numbers, sales also have incredibly increased in raw numbers.
I don't think the proportion of piracy has really increased. Heck, I'm even pretty sure it has actually proportionnaly DEcreased, simply because there is now a LOT of "casual gamers" who buy all their games, while there was simply no "casual" people in the computer world twenty years ago - we were all somehow nerds/passionnates/technicians and the like. And non-casual people tends to "know the ropes", and as such have a much higher tendency to know how to get their games for free - and as such, much higher proportion to GET them for free.

You'd be surprised with how little "know-how" is required to actually pirate a game. It's not like it's a rubix cube and only a select few know where to go and what to do to get what they want. Google can find you pretty much anything, and a stumbling search with terms that don't completely apply would get you to a site that will let you do a lot.

I've read a few articles in the past year (and one in 07 that was predicting it) that state PC game sales are actually slowing. I can't sit here and tell you piracy is cause number one concretely, but its my opinion that it has a big part in it.

Of course, if this is truly how this conversation intends to go we'll have to agree to disagree about Piracy's effects on the market (which is aiding in going further and further OT). Neither of us seems closer to convincing the other.

[Martok]

We're sorta getting off topic here, and that's my fault for using such broad language, if Martok/Nelson wants we can stear this back to ETW and Steam.

If we could direct the the conversation back towards Empire, I'd appreciate it. That, or I can move it to either the Arena or Hard/Software Forum.