Empire using Steam; Gamespot interview/preview

[JR-]

Are you sure?

• During authentication will it insist to download the latest version of steam?
• Will I need to authenticate if I do a reformat? For many this being a regular occurance and sadly the nature of windows.
• Will I need to download patches via steam and can I keep a backup copy for future use rather than re-downoad every time?
• Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?
• Will I need to authenticate everytime I re-install the game?
• Some clarification regarding mods would also be very welcome.

all good questions.

[AussieGiant]

Yes very good questions Nebuchadnezzar.

I'd like to see a response to those.

And just to be clear.

There is a ONE TIME ONLY requirement to register the copy with Steam? Not a one time per single player session?

That means; I install the game from DVD or CD; install the "Steam" client as part of that install process; then register the game; then shut "Steam" down and play happily ever after wards; unless I see a patch of course in which case; I start "Steam" up again; download the patch; then shut "Steam" down again?

Correcto?

[Martok]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It's just, I mean i love GC III, why can't more people do the stardock thing.

What?? Stardock's making Galactic Civilizations 3 already? What do you know? Tell me! TELL ME!!

[Martok shakes Polemists for information]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yeah, I know that was a typo on your part, and that we won't be seeing GalCiv 3 anytime soon. I had to do it anyway, though.

Anyway, back to topic:

And just to be clear.

There is a ONE TIME ONLY requirement to register the copy with Steam? Not a one time per single player session?

That means; I install the game from DVD or CD; install the "Steam" client as part of that install process; then register the game; then shut "Steam" down and play happily ever after wards; unless I see a patch of course in which case; I start "Steam" up again; download the patch; then shut "Steam" down again?

Correcto?

That's my understanding of how it'll work, yes. From what CA has said, we'll only need Steam for the initial install/authentication and for patches/updates (if you play only singleplayer, that is). Otherwise we shouldn't need to bother with it.

[Upxl]

Ha steam,
I remember the old days when me and my cs clan blasted those noobish clans away.
We had computers so didn’t needed girls…
Thank god that all changed J.

But seriously, I remember when steam came out and have to honestly say that I have always been a happy steam user.
And if I would ever feel the urge off playing online again Steam will be the first program I’ll install.

[LadyAnn]

I bet you still need girls, whether you have them or not :)

Annie

[Zenicetus]

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
Are you sure?

* During authentication will it insist to download the latest version of steam?
* Will I need to authenticate if I do a reformat? For many this being a regular occurance and sadly the nature of windows.
* Will I need to download patches via steam and can I keep a backup copy for future use rather than re-downoad every time?
* Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?
* Will I need to authenticate everytime I re-install the game?
* Some clarification regarding mods would also be very welcome.

all good questions.

Agreed, but in all likelihood we'll never get a straight answer to #4 ("Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?"). It's related to these questions:

• What happens if the company goes out of business, or is absorbed by a larger company that's no longer interested in paying to keep the authorization servers online?
  
• If I keep an old computer around to run games I consider classics and might want to re-visit, and it's running a OS version several versions old.... will you guarantee that your current version of DRM, Steam, whatever will still authenticate the game on that older platform? What are you promising, in essence, for future support?

I've never seen a game rep give a straight answer to these sorts of questions, whenever it comes up in other forums. "Don't worry, we'll take care of you" is not a straight answer, but it's the closest I've seen to any kind of commitment for future support, no matter what happens to the company.

This goes to the heart of whether we're renting or purchasing games. It's much more relevant for a strategy title like TW, which gamers might want to re-visit in the future, than something with limited replay value like a FPS game. If I'm only going to be renting my games with no guarantee of future installation whenever I want, then I want a different price structure.

[Arcana]

Meh, I prefer Impulse to Steam, mostly because it's non-invasive and doesn't require itself to be running in order to play the game.

That's Steam's main failing for me - it has to run in the background. Whereas my GalCiv runs quite happily just having been authenticated. I don't run Impulse unless I want to update (offtopic: FINALLY Stardock gave us 2.0 of Twilight. I thought I was going to die of old age before it came, but I digress), which, to be fair, I rarely do. Ideally I'd have seen ETW on Impulse than Steam.

I do see the uses of both systems. I can see why companies use them. But I think it's unfair on those who've grabbed a boxed copy to have to authenticate online. If you buy it to be downloaded over steam, fair enough! But for those of us who've got a disc, why should we be limited? I hate that companies treat good honest users like criminals. I'm convinced that there's something in law that prohibits the crap game companies (particularly EA) are pulling these days.

I am, however a bit irked by the argument of "It's not as bad as SecuROM". While this may be true, "not as bad as" does not mean it is "good". Brussels Sprouts are not as bad as running your tongue over razor blade ice cream, but I still don't want them near my tongue, thanks very much.

[AussieGiant]

But that was the nature of my question Arcana.

Based on the description, Martok has agreed there will be no need to run it in the background while playing Single Player. Of course you maybe speaking about Multiplayer.

[Arcana]

I hope that's the case. In general, for steam games I've previously encountered you have to set Steam to an 'offline mode' which it automatically tries to get out of every time you fire it up...irksome.

[hellenes]

It served as an example of how developers are being, in some cases, completely cut out of the picture. It's happening on a bigger scale than you're willing to admit, and that is one example of it.



Bob wants to buy a game, Bob decides from what he reads online the game sounds bad, but he decides to get it anyway. He doesn't buy it so he pirates it. Goods are acquired without the exchange of anything at all, under any other method the definition is stealing. You can go ones tep further anda ssume that Bob will continue to pirate games now that he's done it already.

If he were the only one in the world to take this attitude then there would be no harm, but he's not. I know people here in the states who don't buy a single game. All they do is pirate things. They don't care about supporting a developer, they just want the game.



You'd be surprised with how little "know-how" is required to actually pirate a game. It's not like it's a rubix cube and only a select few know where to go and what to do to get what they want. Google can find you pretty much anything, and a stumbling search with terms that don't completely apply would get you to a site that will let you do a lot.

I've read a few articles in the past year (and one in 07 that was predicting it) that state PC game sales are actually slowing. I can't sit here and tell you piracy is cause number one concretely, but its my opinion that it has a big part in it.

Of course, if this is truly how this conversation intends to go we'll have to agree to disagree about Piracy's effects on the market (which is aiding in going further and further OT). Neither of us seems closer to convincing the other.

Copyright infrigment has as much to do with theft as car speeding has to do with rape....

PS as for the doom and gloom brainwash campaign:
http://www.shacknews.com/tag.x/PCGA

[Martok]

All right folks. Either play nice, or don't play at all.


Let's stick to the original subject. If you wish to conduct a more general discussion of game piracy and copy protection, please do so in the Arena or the Backroom.

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

That Empire will use Steam is certianly unfortunate news. I was already considering not purchasing Empire because the special edition includes changes to the actual game. Steam is a deal-breaker, though. I realize this is just my opinion, but my dollars are the only vote I have against business models I consider unreasonable.

[Megas Methuselah]

Well, that's your loss. I'd gladly support steam in opposition to SecuRom anyday.

[hoom]

Worth quoting a CA dev over at the TW centre.

Hi there

I'm sorry if I seem confused but why is this rumour about limited installs continuing? It's entirely false.

We have explicitly stated on our own TotalWar.com website that there will be no limit to legitimate installations of "Empire: Total War". An authenticated purchase of the game is all that is required.

When you install the game on to your PC there will be a one time authentication on "Steam". After that you can play with Steam set to "offline", if you dont want to get updates or patches of "Empire: Total War" or the "Steam" application.

You will be able to purchase a disk version of the game from most good game retailers - which will require the same one time Steam authentication - if you dont want to download the game from Steam.

If you get rid of your old PC after installing the game you can re-install the game, along with Steam, on a new machine and you will only need to authenticate the game, on Steam, to start playing it again. You can install it on ten PC's if you like but you will only be able to play it on one machine at a time.

Multiplayer online gameplay will require you to go online using Steam as Steam is the matchmaking service and the means of communication Empire uses between players.

Hopefully this is clear enough?

And again

We will not be limiting the number of uses of the game.
We will not be limiting the number of times you install and uninstall it - as long as multiple users dont try to use the same copy of the game.

[Megas Methuselah]

Thx a lot, Hoom. I'm sure the scales will fall from the eyes of many people!

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

Well, that's your loss.

On balance, not really.

[Megas Methuselah]

Whatevah. It won't stop me from buying it. And enjoying it, too.

[cromwell]

I don't think steam, will cause any more problems than usual for a new release. Don't forget HL/HL2/CS.S are probably the most modded games of all time, and Steam has worked for all those mod teams. It actually helps modders get out the word.

I have never found steam to be that invasive, I turn it off, and it only loads if I click on the icon for steam to load, so it's not running all the time. When playing MP online, yes I have it on in the background.

Think of all the confusion for the MP rooms, when a patch is release now, everyone spends hrs telling people go get the patch so we can play. Now it should auto load the patch before you go online. That reduces Customer support queries and such. Plus I still cannot believe how bad some gamers are at updating their system and patching software.

Sorry, just to much QQ for my taste.

Cromwell

[Mailman653]

I had steam in order to run Red Orechestra, I had no complaints over it. When I played the game; steam would run in the background but when I was finished I just shut it down and thats it. Plus as the post above states, new patches automatically download when you sign in so you don't have to go visit a bunch of websites to d/l a patch.

[Zenicetus]

Worth quoting a CA dev over at the TW centre.
And again

We will not be limiting the number of uses of the game.
We will not be limiting the number of times you install and uninstall it - as long as multiple users dont try to use the same copy of the game.

No, the CA rep is still ducking one of the important issues here. Someone who buys the game can play it as long as the Steam activation servers are online. One time activation, fine. That works for today, but what about down the road?

What are the customer's options for installing the game on another machine in the future, if Steam and CA are no longer around to authorize the game? Are they willing to unlock the game if they go bankrupt or are swallowed by another company?

Strategy games are one of those categories where players sometimes like to install a game that's several years old for nostalgia's sake, or because it was just a great game. If Steam and CA are no longer around to authorize the game, then what are we supposed to do.... find a pirate copy? Hope it's gone into open source? What?

As usual, the devs are silent on this issue.

[SpencerH]

No, the CA rep is still ducking one of the important issues here. Someone who buys the game can play it as long as the Steam activation servers are online. One time activation, fine. That works for today, but what about down the road?

What are the customer's options for installing the game on another machine in the future, if Steam and CA are no longer around to authorize the game? Are they willing to unlock the game if they go bankrupt or are swallowed by another company?

Strategy games are one of those categories where players sometimes like to install a game that's several years old for nostalgia's sake, or because it was just a great game. If Steam and CA are no longer around to authorize the game, then what are we supposed to do.... find a pirate copy? Hope it's gone into open source? What?

As usual, the devs are silent on this issue.

You have a point.

OTOH, I'd like to play MTW or STW (since I dislike the more recent TW efforts) but AFAIK I cant without screwing with the video drivers and other components of the reasonably modern PC that I have here in NJ. While it's true that Steam may go out of business, it's more likely that changes to the PC hardware and OS will render ETW unplayable before that happens.

[macduro]

[*]During authentication will it insist to download the latest version of steam?

Yes , it does automatically when steam starts
[*]Will I need to authenticate if I do a reformat? For many this being a regular occurance and sadly the nature of windows.

You don't need to autenticate the games again if you reformat , but you will need loguin on steam
You have no limits to download the game , you can install and reinstall it all the times that you want.
[*]Will I need to download patches via steam and can I keep a backup copy for future use rather than re-downoad every time?

Patches are downloaded atumatically , and yes you can do backups , but it use to be more usefull just to copy and paste the game directory.
[*]Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?

NO , they will never change the terms.
[*]Will I need to authenticate everytime I re-install the game?

No , but you will need loguin onto steam



I see that not so many people here knows how steam works.

To play a Steam game first of all you will need to have a Steam account . The games that runs under steam are ALWAYS linked to the Steam account , games can't be moved to another account or sell to another user .
If you buy ETW on retail you will receive thegame with a keycode , you will to open the steam program , loguin onto your account and put the ETW keycode onto your steam account . You can only do it one time , and once done you will not be able to change the game to another steam account.
And be aware , all the games that runs under steam needs at least connect to internet one time in order to run . You can install the game from the CD but you need to autenthificate it on the steam net .

If you go to visit family or friends you can play the games that are associated to your steam account easily , you only need to download steam again in another computer , loguin in your account and download the games . No matter where you are , you can activate your steam client everiwere with your games alwais ready to donwload an play.

Actually Steam , Nvidia and ATI gifts some games to the owners from a graphic card from one of those companies . If you don't have a steam account you can use those links to start ...

http://www.steampowered.com/nvidia/

http://steampowered.com/ati_offer1a/

[Zenicetus]

You have a point.

OTOH, I'd like to play MTW or STW (since I dislike the more recent TW efforts) but AFAIK I cant without screwing with the video drivers and other components of the reasonably modern PC that I have here in NJ. While it's true that Steam may go out of business, it's more likely that changes to the PC hardware and OS will render ETW unplayable before that happens.

Sure, that's a valid point too. There's a window of time beyond which you can't reasonably expect to play older computer games, unless you keep an old PC around just for that purpose. But I think many of us would still like the same window of time we've had with previous games, for playing on older platforms that can still run these things. Invasive DRM shouldn't be the limiting factor there.

I have a bunch of games in my closet that I've re-installed over the years. Heck, I might want to revisit Rome one of these days, and re-install RTW for a little Phalanx-busting action. And I can still do that, as long as I don't jump too many generations of hardware and OS into the future. I don't think that's too much to ask for, when we're paying $60 for a game.

If the game companies want to rent us games as a limited-time service, pay-as-you-go for as long as the company lasts, at an appropriate price for a monthly rental, that would be one thing. And I think many of us might go for that. But this isn't what they're doing. They're charging a full commodity price for the game, as if we could use it forever (as long as we have the hardware to run it). But there's a time bomb attached to the game, that may nor not may go off at some future time when the company goes out of business.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

[*]Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?

NO , they will never change the terms.

Forgive me for being skeptical here but you know this how?

[macduro]

Forgive me for being skeptical here but you know this how?

I'm sure . This is because steam is only a distribution tool , the terms of use for the game only concern to Sega , the owner . They are the only one than can decide about game athentification , adding DRM or other tools or redirecting you to another loguin place as games for windows live ...

[macduro]

If the game companies want to rent us games as a limited-time service, pay-as-you-go for as long as the company lasts, at an appropriate price for a monthly rental, that would be one thing. And I think many of us might go for that. But this isn't what they're doing. They're charging a full commodity price for the game, as if we could use it forever (as long as we have the hardware to run it). But there's a time bomb attached to the game, that may nor not may go off at some future time when the company goes out of business.

Valve has said in some ocasions that if eventually they go out of bussines the will release a steam edition that allows you to continue playing your games offline , without loguin in to the valve servers .
At this moment there are some cracking tools that allows you to do this things , so if Steam eventually closes his doors you can be sure that you will not lost your games.

Steam is a great plataform , it has some incovenients for the customers but offers great things .
The most important thing to now about steam is that it's a plataform for games from valve , valve rent his space to another companies for sell his games online .
The support for the nonvalve games that are on steam is responsability of this other companies ,and sometimes the use to release bad ports to steam , with versions taht are bugged , not fully updated or with very expensive price if we compare it with the retail version .

[nameless]

They're charging a full commodity price for the game, as if we could use it forever (as long as we have the hardware to run it). But there's a time bomb attached to the game, that may nor not may go off at some future time when the company goes out of business.

There's also the chances of your computer blowing up or someone breaking into your house and breaking the computer, and the internet collapsing with a nuclear war breaking out.

SEGA/CA don't have a crystal ball that tells them when or if they will go under.

And besides, as macduro noted, how hard is it for someone to bring out a patch/program to deactivate the STEAM part?

[andrewt]

I've read a few articles in the past year (and one in 07 that was predicting it) that state PC game sales are actually slowing. I can't sit here and tell you piracy is cause number one concretely, but its my opinion that it has a big part in it.

Not going to go in to the piracy thing, but if you're talking about NPD sales statistics, they're grossly flawed. If you buy Empire as a download from Steam instead of buying a retail copy of the game, to these guys, it's like you never bought the game at all.

Those monthly subscriptions I pay for World of Warcraft? Nope, they're not PC game revenue at all. At least, until the first quarter of this year, when they decided that there was over $1B in MMO gaming subscriptions they were not tracking that must've been hidden under a rock.

A lot of these sales research firms are employed by retailes. Since a lot of PC revenue has cut out the middleman, retailers, they pretend these don't exist. Much of PC game revenues nowadays are subscriptions, advertisements, micro transactions and downloads.

I can't wait to see these guys call Empire a bust because the "retail" sales have evaporated.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm sure . This is because steam is only a distribution tool , the terms of use for the game only concern to Sega , the owner . They are the only one than can decide about game athentification , adding DRM or other tools or redirecting you to another loguin place as games for windows live ...

LOL I don't think so! I'm sure SEGA's EULA will include something about users also accepting Valves T&C

and guess what? No surprises to see Vaves TC contains a clause where they can change their agreement whenever it wishes.

Perhaps you forgot Kingdoms and Securom. Sega washed their hands on those having problems and redirected them to securom for help. SEGA may be the publisher/developer but I doubt they take much responsibility for the third party inclusions.

[macduro]

LOL I don't think so! I'm sure SEGA's EULA will include something about users also accepting Valves T&C

and guess what? No surprises to see Vaves TC contains a clause where they can change their agreement whenever it wishes.

Perhaps you forgot Kingdoms and Securom. Sega washed their hands on those having problems and redirected them to securom for help. SEGA may be the publisher/developer but I doubt they take much responsibility for the third party inclusions.

Well , if you don't believe me you can go to the steam forums and ask about it . Valve can change the EULA for the Steam tool , but not the EULA for games that are not from Valve .
I told you again , Valve just rent a space in to the Steam to other companies for sell his games , and are those other companies who decide over his games , about the support , upgrades or about how the people can acces the game .

From the Steam EULA :

6. THIRD PARTY CONTENT

"Third Party Content" means software and other content provided by third parties, other than Valve, that is designed to work in conjunction with the Steam Software (e.g. mods of Valve game products). In regard to all Third Party Content, Valve acts merely as an intermediary service provider. Valve does not screen Third Party Content available on Steam or through other sources. Valve does not assume any responsibility or liability for Third Party Content.