Greeks/Phoenicians/Romans in America?

[Hax]

Since we were getting way off topic in MAA's AAR, I decided to open a topic here.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I also read an article in a magazine -- I think it was National Geographic or something like that, which really freaked me out -- that some people claim to have found pottery evidence that Carthaginians were trading with South Americans at one point.

Apparently Carthage is the new Atlantis.

The Phoenicians/Carthage traded up the Atlantic coast as far as Britain but never really set up any true colonies out there. They also traded down the African coast, but it is almost impossible for them to have made it to the Americas. Not impossible to do so, just extrememly unlikely.

Yeah, I know they traded with the Brits, though most of the trade would likely have gone through middle-men first. But yes, I know the Carthies had set foot on the Brittish Isles, but the notion of Carthaginian colonies there just struck me as so absurd. Maybe it isn´t all that absurd, but it was presented as undisputed fact.

And yes, it is extremely unlikely they went to America. But heck, they probably went south of the equator, so who knows. We can´t be sure.

But anyway, when did this become about Carthaginian colonies around the globe? I want a new chapter!

Well, the Greeks even went as far as ''Esperia'', or America as they called it. Greek coins have been found there, just do a quick net search and you'll come across it. That's why I see no reason the Phoenicians wouldn't be able to do so, as advanced in trade as they where.

Maion

I know they were in Sri Lanka and probably in SE Asia as well, but America? The coins could have been lost by a numismatist, mind you.

Maybe, but then again it is up to each of us to make conclusions. Anyway, we are getting off-topic so I guess we should get back to the point :-P

Maion

I think the Semurians were the first civilisation to travel to the Americas.

Discuss!

[Lovejoy]

Was the ships of that age even able to travel that far? Without ever stopping for food/water?

[desert]

Here, these guys traveled to the moon. Clearly the Phonecians could have traveled to the Americas, which is about a hundred times closer.

http://oddlots.digitalspace.net/gues...e_history.html

[Ibrahim]

I find dumbass' post quite fitting for him

but yes, there are scools of thought that show that ancient civilizations reached the America's. of all the peoples, the phoenicians are the best bet, but there is no evidence of them reaching the America's, like the Vikings did: look up lance aux meadows. Though I do fing it possible, in light of the surprisingly sophisticated maritime technology (IIRC the greeks and phoenicians did have sailing ships, not just galleys-an important consideration for lovejoy).

there is also mention of an irish guy named St. Brendan the navigator having reached America, with good circumstantial evidence (i.e his writings), and their accuracy (though conventional sources say its an allegory). this line also lacks the all-important physical evidence as well. I know the guy lived before lief ericksson, but what time I dunno. 6th centry or thereabouts.

EDIT: here. Its not the source I used, but it should give you an idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan

[keravnos]

Ancient Greeks (under Roman domination) reached even up to China, as there are accounts of Imperial Roma sending over emissaries to the Chinese (Later Han) via sea. Indonesia too. A sailor of Massalia, under what some historians believe Megas' Alexandros command, sailed around Spain to England (Kassiterides Nesoi) "Tin islands" and even up to Norway (Thoule). Those are the limits of them that we know of. There are some suggestions that Ptolemaioi, after founding 3-4 colonies in present day Somalia, that they sent some ships down Africa, even up to present day S. Africa, but that is unconfirmed. It is MUCH MORE possible though than an actuall ship of Hellenistic times sailing to America.

Ancient Greeks reaching America? I honestly don't think so. Phoenicians maybe, even if that is VERY doubtful but Ancient Greeks NO.

[Marcus Ulpius]

We should take into account that ancient sailors nearly exclusively navigated along the coasts. Britain, Somalia, Scandinavia, China and even Indonesia all of them can be reached by coastal navigation. Ancient ships were not very useful for open sea navigation and it is highly unlikely that those ships could survive a Trans-Atlantic voyage.

[keravnos]

Exactly.

[Tellos Athenaios]

We should take into account that ancient sailors nearly exclusively navigated along the coasts. Britain, Somalia, Scandinavia, China and even Indonesia all of them can be reached by coastal navigation. Ancient ships were not very useful for open sea navigation and it is highly unlikely that those ships could survive a Trans-Atlantic voyage.

Then again, the very same rings true for the ships that did make it to the Americas... It's not until the famous contest for 'who cracks the Longitude measuring problem' was concluded (somewhere 18th century, IIRC) that any reliable means of day-navigating without coastlines became even possible/well-understood. And just another puzzler: the craft of navigating by the stars is about as old (if not older) as the Minoan civilisation -- got to have clear skies though.

[Apgad]

There are some suggestions that Ptolemaioi, after founding 3-4 colonies in present day Somalia, that they sent some ships down Africa, even up to present day S. Africa, but that is unconfirmed.

Herodotus talks about the ancient Egyptians sending out an expedition to circumnavigate Africa. IIRC he says it took several years, and they stopped to plant crops each winter before continuing after the harvest. He doubted the stories though, because he didn't believe that the sun could appear in the north, which is what the Egyptians claimed they saw. Of course that is what they would have seen in the southern hemisphere!