Greeks/Phoenicians/Romans in America?

[keravnos]

Ancient Greeks (under Roman domination) reached even up to China, as there are accounts of Imperial Roma sending over emissaries to the Chinese (Later Han) via sea. Indonesia too. A sailor of Massalia, under what some historians believe Megas' Alexandros command, sailed around Spain to England (Kassiterides Nesoi) "Tin islands" and even up to Norway (Thoule). Those are the limits of them that we know of. There are some suggestions that Ptolemaioi, after founding 3-4 colonies in present day Somalia, that they sent some ships down Africa, even up to present day S. Africa, but that is unconfirmed. It is MUCH MORE possible though than an actuall ship of Hellenistic times sailing to America.

Ancient Greeks reaching America? I honestly don't think so. Phoenicians maybe, even if that is VERY doubtful but Ancient Greeks NO.

[Marcus Ulpius]

We should take into account that ancient sailors nearly exclusively navigated along the coasts. Britain, Somalia, Scandinavia, China and even Indonesia all of them can be reached by coastal navigation. Ancient ships were not very useful for open sea navigation and it is highly unlikely that those ships could survive a Trans-Atlantic voyage.

[keravnos]

Exactly.

[Tellos Athenaios]

We should take into account that ancient sailors nearly exclusively navigated along the coasts. Britain, Somalia, Scandinavia, China and even Indonesia all of them can be reached by coastal navigation. Ancient ships were not very useful for open sea navigation and it is highly unlikely that those ships could survive a Trans-Atlantic voyage.

Then again, the very same rings true for the ships that did make it to the Americas... It's not until the famous contest for 'who cracks the Longitude measuring problem' was concluded (somewhere 18th century, IIRC) that any reliable means of day-navigating without coastlines became even possible/well-understood. And just another puzzler: the craft of navigating by the stars is about as old (if not older) as the Minoan civilisation -- got to have clear skies though.

[Pontius Pilate]

There is a theory that the Phoenicians or Carthagians did in fact reach the Americas. In fact there was a history channel show that mentioned this topic. It noted that Hanno the Great(or Navigator?) may have indeed reached the Americas sailing from North Africa. There is also a theory that the Egyptians landed in Australia, since some heiroglyphs have been found sketched into rocks. Also, the Chinese were aware of a great empire in the west, they sent emissaries to Rome during Marcus Aureilus' reign but the emissaries were turned back before they could reach Rome by the Parthians.

[Maion Maroneios]

Well, Greek Key designs (maiandros) have also been found in America. That's why it might be able for them to have reached there. Also, we know they knew of the continent's existance, as there are quite a few guys who mention "the land after the 'Herakleies Steiles' or Gibraltar" or "Esperia". Also, I've seen a documentary on Youtube of someone who went from America to southern Africa with a wooden boat, proving it would be able for advanced European naval civilisations to sail to America. Also, tabaco and other ingredients have been found in small quantites within mummyfied Egyptians, things than didn't even exist in Europe. Now doesn't that ring a bell to any of you?

Maion

[Pontius Pilate]

Well, Greek Key designs (maiandros) have also been found in America. That's why it might be able for them to have reached there. Also, we know they knew of the continent's existance, as there are quite a few guys who mention "the land after the 'Herakleies Steiles' or Gibraltar" or "Esperia". Also, I've seen a documentary on Youtube of someone who went from America to southern Africa with a wooden boat, proving it would be able for advanced European naval civilisations to sail to America. Also, tabaco and other ingredients have been found in small quantites within mummyfied Egyptians, things than didn't even exist in Europe. Now doesn't that ring a bell to any of you?

Maion

yes, people should open up their minds to more possibilities.

[ludwag]

Why should we discuss this here. We are not archaeologicans, or experts. I think someone should find some proof. I can imagine, but I cannot know anything.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Well, I think it's the same thing as why it's not an exploit or a cheat to teleport your diplomat (that means he's actually hiring a boat from a local coast dweller) over the channel to negotiate with the Casse, but teleporting an army would indeed be one (because 30,000 men and 30,000 men serving them could not all hire a boat from a local coast dweller).

Or it's the same as a broad river can be a defendable border against an enemy incursion, but never a defendable border against a Sweboz chieftain crossing the river in his canoe.

Of course it is possible to reach the Americas with ancient technology. All you have to do is sail along the coast of Africa, load food and water in the Senegal area, and then sail two or three weeks southwest. Just close your eyes, and if you're lucky, you wake up from the joyous cheers of the inhabitants of Recife.

But of course it's something completely different to mount an expedition thence (wow, a very old fashioned word). Would the Sophet of Kart-Hadast be in the mood to spend great wealth on mounting a fleet of several ships, just to go to a continent that you have no knowledge of, and that you actually believe cannot exist due to the undeniable fact that the world ends west of the Pillars of Herakles, devouring everything foolish enough to test it in a giant waterfall, leading into darkness and oblivion? Hell no!

I've read of an account of an Inuit being thrown on the coast of Denmark in about EB's timeframe. I think he was a big sensation at a wealthy chieftain's court. But that doesn't mean there were Inuit expeditions discovering the magnificient forests of Magna Germania.

[Apgad]

There is also a theory that the Egyptians landed in Australia, since some heiroglyphs have been found sketched into rocks.

That's a very bad theory though, as the heiroglyphs were seen being carved by "an elderly Yugoslav bloke" in the 1980s...

[oudysseos]

One of my favourite books from years ago is The Ra Expeditions by Thor Heyerdahl. He built a boat out of reeds, following ancient Egyptian models (not even wood!!) and sailed from Morocco to Barbados. He also built the Tigris, another reed boat, and sailed from the Persian Gulf to Djibouti. Although I am as quick as any to point out the limits of experimental archaeology, reconstruction, and re-enactment, Thor certainly did demonstrate that very old boats were absolutely capable of long voyages. And Tim Severin is almost an Irish national hero for The Brendan Voyages, in which he actually sailed a leather (still not wood!!) currach to Newfoundland.

So yes, it could have been done. Not the same as it was done.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I think it's certain that none of the great nations/empires in Europe didn't do a planned expedition to find the lands beyond the ocean in the west. They had other more important things to think about.
But small merchant vessels that were thrown too much west because of the storms could have easily reached America. And IF they got back then their stories would be too unbelievable for anyone to take it serious.

[Gleemonex]

[...] Although I am as quick as any to point out the limits of experimental archaeology, reconstruction, and re-enactment, Thor certainly did demonstrate that very old boats were absolutely capable of long voyages. [...]

Good post, oudysseos. But I want to comment briefly on the above.

I don't understand why so many people seem to get after re-enactors, or other re-creation endeavours. Taken for what they are, they can be the source of quick, tangible insight.

For example, as best I can gather (though I'm no historian) the question of spear grip in the hoplite phalanx was solved, or at least confirmed simply by asking re-enactors. If you hold under-hand, you nut the guy behind you. So over-hand it is. [1]

Not every question needs a PhD and years of peer review to be answered.

On another note, some of you may find this interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

-Glee

[1] If this turns out to be apocryphal, I have full confidence that other such examples can be found. I'm too busy/lazy to research right now

[Apgad]

There are some suggestions that Ptolemaioi, after founding 3-4 colonies in present day Somalia, that they sent some ships down Africa, even up to present day S. Africa, but that is unconfirmed.

Herodotus talks about the ancient Egyptians sending out an expedition to circumnavigate Africa. IIRC he says it took several years, and they stopped to plant crops each winter before continuing after the harvest. He doubted the stories though, because he didn't believe that the sun could appear in the north, which is what the Egyptians claimed they saw. Of course that is what they would have seen in the southern hemisphere!