Greeks/Phoenicians/Romans in America?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I don't think it is a question of could they have, but rather would they have even given it a try. If you were in an open boat and someone suggested going randomly out into the open ocean and see if there is anything way out there, you would mutany. Leaving the sight of the coast isn't just stupid, it is quite scary. No experienced sailor of the time would risk it unless he was sure of what he would find.

[Mulceber]

I don't think it is a question of could they have, but rather would they have even given it a try. If you were in an open boat and someone suggested going randomly out into the open ocean and see if there is anything way out there, you would mutany. Leaving the sight of the coast isn't just stupid, it is quite scary. No experienced sailor of the time would risk it unless he was sure of what he would find.

Well, actually, from what I hear from my latin prof, we're starting to see evidence now that ancient ships left the coastline a lot more than we used to think - enough ship-wrecks are turning up in the open ocean to suggest that when they had to hurry, they'd go out into the Mediterranean quite readily. But yeah, you're right, they wouldn't be willing to just sail off into the atlantic - that'd be a recipe for mutiny.

I tend to think that while it could have been done, it probably wasn't. As somebody else here said, there are a lot of things the ancients were capable of, but just didn't do. A lot of it has to do with slave labor, and the ways in which that retards peoples incentive to create new technology, but that isn't the whole picture. -M

[Anastasios Helios]

I have read before about the discovery of the carcass of a Roman ship (plus many Mediterranean-style vases (called amphorae I think?) buried under the harbor of Rio de Janerio in Brazil. I forget when exactly this occured but the Spanish and Portugese governments did a cover-up because they feared that the archaeologist who discovered everything was an agent of the Italian government trying to establish an Italian claim to the European discovery of South America. The archaeologist believed that the amphorae were of Moroccan origin and that the Roman ship was probably trading off the coast of Morocco when a wild wind blew it westwards to Brazil...I read about it in "Feats and Wisdom of the Ancients"....do any of you guys know of this book? (It's amazing!)

[oudysseos]

I agree with Gleemonex and don't take my comment about re-enactors as a negative one- I participated in the Olympias trireme way back when, so that'd be calling the kettle black- but I think it is important to stress that a reconstruction or re-enactment does have limits. Heyerdahl proved that reed boats are capable of ocean crossings, not that there were extensive trade links between the Carthaginians and the Olmecs. Keravnos is right that hindsight is 20/20: Heyerdahl, Severin et al could make their voyages because they knew where they were going, and had radios and life rafts if they got into trouble. They also had the leisure time and money to footle around with their hobbies. Ancient Phoenicians, Greeks, Egyptians, Lemurians etc didn't have those advantages and most of all didn't know that there was a new world to find.
The ultimate proof that there were not trade links (as opposed to accidental non-return crossings) is the absence of new world products in Europe before Colombus. Cotton plants, tomatoes, maize, peppers, potatoes, tobacco- these items and many others transformed European society and economy when they became available in the 16th century.

[Gleemonex]

I think it is important to stress that a reconstruction or re-enactment does have limits. Heyerdahl proved that reed boats are capable of ocean crossings, not that there were extensive trade links between the Carthaginians and the Olmecs.

I agree 100%. My post was aimed generally; it wasn't meant to target you.

I've seen others make less measured assessments of re-enactment, however. And that's why I stressed that re-enactment should be taken for what it is (in addition to being a fun time) -- a demonstration of what is theoretically possible or feasible, provided that the methods and equipment are historically accurate.

An interesting reflection of this, strangely enough, is in the movie "Apollo 13". Gary Sinise's character is grounded when Apollo 13 launches, but when the return capsule encounters technical problems he re-enacts the conditions in a simulator. At one point, he castigates the engineering crew for providing him with the wrong type of flashlight (and also refuses to take a break).

-Glee

[ludwag]

Thor Heyerdal is from Norway

[oudysseos]

Yes he was.